Let me introduce astronomer Myunghyun Rhee.
Can you introduce yourself
Hello everyone
Hello
Is the mic working well
He is really cool right
Thanks for joining us today.
Thanks for inviting me.
Let me ask you some basic questions that people might be interested in. Also, please feel free to share your interest with us at anytime.
To begin with, since you are an astronomer, could you tell us about what astronomers study. Also, I believe you are a radio astronomer. Please briefly explain the areas of study in astronomy other than your specialty.
You picture a giant telescope when you think of an astronomer. They are called optical astronomers.
A telescope that collects visible things is called an optical telescope. Astronomers who observe the celestial bodies by using telescopes, such as the sun, galaxy, and stars, are called observational astronomers.
The lights that make things visible are called visible rays.
This is the telescope that you imagine, but there are invisible lights, such as infrared rays, ultraviolet rays, x-rays, gamma rays and radio waves.
However, those invisible rays can be seen by different telescopes. You are an infrared astronomer, if you use an infrared telescope for observation.
Electronic devices such as phone, radio, and TV emit electric waves and so do the celestial bodies. Astronomers using electric waves to observe are called radio astronomers, like myself.
Astronomers using tools to observe are called observational astronomers. For example, physicists see Stephen Hawking as a theoretical physicist, while astronomers see him as an astrophysicist.
He is known as a theoretical physicist because he studied particular space objects in theory.
You are all familiar with computers in these days. There are astronomers who neither use telescopes nor study them in theory, but instead, do computations.
They run simulations in computer. This area has grown significantly, and we call them computational astronomers.
What I do is studying the galaxies to find out the age of the universe by using radio telescopes.
I am getting really confused now. I want to ask the most basic, but the most difficult question. How big is the universe and how many galaxies it has.
Also, is there any scientific evidence in your estimates. How big is the universe and how many galaxies it has based on up to date research.
People have fundamental questions on the size and age of the universe, or the number of stars in the sky.
Based on precise observation conducted during the past decade, we estimate that the universe is approximately 13.8 billion years old.
This figure is mostly agreed in the field.
What it means in relation to the Big Bang theory is that the universe has been expanding since its birth and became what it is today and there are observational findings to support.
In short, the universe has been expanding for 13.8 billion years. The universe is 13.8 billion years old and it will continue to age.
The universe started small and has expanded over the course of time, which means that the universe should be certain size today. However, astronomers may or may not know how old it is.
Though the size of the universe seems to be simple, it is quite complicated. Since the universe is expanding with the limited age, the size of the universe comes with different stories.
This might sound absurd. To give you an example, we think that the sun rises and set at one particular time, but there are 6-7 different sunrise times for astronomers.
Because the sunrise itself can be debatable. Is the sun risen once it passes the horizon or does it have to shine to certain level.
That is why we have different versions. The same applies to the size of the universe. For example, I mentioned that the universe is 13.8 billion years old. The universe has expanded for 13.8 billion years to become what it is now.
The fastest thing in the universe is light, and even the light has its limits. Lights cannot travel more than 300,000km per second.
Since the universe is 13.8 billion years old, the light cannot pass 13,8 billion light years. Thus, 13.8 billion light years would be the size of the universe.
When the universe has only existed for 13.8 billion years, lights cannot travel further than that. Even if the universe and lights were born at the same time, lights could have traveled more than 13.8 billion years.
That is why we may refer 13.8 billion light years to the size of the universe.
But I told you earlier that it is quite complicated. The universe has grown since its birth as if you are getting away from the person sitting next to you.
Lights keep travel while the universe has been expanding. Therefore, we can receive the light was started 13.8 billion ago, and a portion of the same light could have further traveled.
And there are ways to compute this. If we know how fast the universe expands, we can compute the size of the universe and that is approximately 46 billion light years in radius.
We can picture a sphere using this radius, and this is all we can know about the size of the universe.
The universe may still exist outside of that sphere, but we cannot prove it in scientific ways since 13.8 billion years of the history is only known to us.
That is why the 46 billion radius is the edge of the observable universe.
The universe may or may not exist outside of the boundary, but we cannot prove scientifically and that is why the edge of the universe is very complicated.
Anyway, if you ask me to put it into the number, one side of the observable universe is 46 billion light years far from where we are.
To prove the Big Bang theory, giving an example of real life
Do you actually observe two stars slowly moving further from each other
The Big Bang theory indicates that the universe started small and has been expanding.
And there is a expansion rate called Hubble constant, which you might have heard from school.
The observable evidence was found by Hubble in 1929. A galaxy refers to a group of stars in the universe.
and there are estimated 1 trillion galaxies in the universe.
We are living in a galaxy out of 1 trillion
But the reason we can feel expansion of the universe is our that our bodies do not get bigger or get away from each other.
So it is hard to believe that the universe is expanding. But, the universe expands by keeping more distances between galaxies and the galaxies are moving away from each other.
How we observed is to find the distance to the galaxy and measure the speed.
The further the galaxy is from us, the faster it moved away from us.
This research first came out in 1929.
It almost has been 100 years since then, and precise observations conducted after the first discovery further validated the relationship between the distance and speed of galaxies.
There are many evidences that prove the observations. Since the universe grew from small to big,
Let us apply the law of conservation of mass and the law of conservation of energy, for example.
The density drops when the volume increases while its mass remains the same.
A lower density leads to a decrease in temperature. Do you remember what adiabatic expansion is.
A increase in volume slows down molecular motions, which then drops the temperature.
Therefore, expansion of the universe lowers the density and the temperature as well.
On the other hands, the temperature will not drop without expansion of the universe and we can observe it.
What should happen based on the Big Bang theory has been observed and validated for the past century
and we accept the Big Bang theory as the universal paradigm.
When I was young, I learned about the planets during science classes
and few years later, I was informed that Pluto is not a planet anymore. They said that Pluto had been misclassified as a planet when it should have been a dwarf planet.
How did that happen. Are there any other cases with scientific errors or misjudgement
Few years ago, there were huge debates on nominating the new administrative capital in Korea.
Some even cited Gyeongguk daejeon to argue that Seoul should be the capital city.
Pluto was known as the ninth planet, but there was no astronomical definition of a planet.
Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn has long been perceived as planets with no doubts because they are all visible.
Although Uranus and Neptune were discovered later, they are just two additional and people perceived them as planets without astronomical definition.
Then Pluto was discovered in 1930 and that was when things became complicated. Until then, planets has patterns.
Planets closer to the sun are relatively smaller. For examples, Mercury is similar to the moon, Venus is similar to Earth and Mars is twice as small as Earth.
Also, they have hard surfaces like Earth. On the other hand, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, and Neptune are all large and made up of gas.
When Pluto was discovered in 1930, it was smaller than the moon, had rocky surface like Earth, yet positioned with a wrong group.
Pluto also deviates from the rest in its orbit. Other planets rotates the sun in circle, although it is closer to oval shape.
Yet, Pluto orbits tilted. While other eight planets rotates in flat around the sun, the orbit of Pluto is sided, sometimes even invading the orbit of Neptune.
I believe it was around 1977 to 1997. Pluto was positioned as the 8th planet for 20 plus years, pushing Neptune to the 9th.
Pluto showed too many irregularities to become a planet. There had been debates on whether to recognise Pluto as the 9th planet.
International Astronomy Union hosted a conference in Prague on August 2006 and several planets further from Pluto were reportedly discovered.
And some argued that they should be named as planet in sequence.
Later, a multiple of the similar kinds were discovered in the orbit of Neptune and Pluto.
It began with two additional planets, but it could have ended up with thousands more. How can we memorise all of their names then.
This also led to political and social issues. Pluto was discovered by Clyde Tombaugh, an assistant at Lowell Observatory.
He became an astronomer eventually.
Neptune and Uranus were discovered by Europeans, although both of them are invisible.
Pluto was the first planet that was discovered by an American and they did not want to miss the credit. Therefore, US finally set definition of the planet to include newly discovered objects as 10th and 11th planet.
US proposed an agenda to the subcommittee. Historically, most of them were rejected and before being brought to the general assembly.
However, the US insisted this time and the Europeans set their definition of the planet in order to exclude Pluto.
The Europeans proposed their definition as an agenda to the subcommittee, but they did not reach the agreement and the issue was brought to the general assembly.
Eventually the Europeans won and that is how Pluto lost its planet status.
US tried to restore Pluto status back, but with no success.
They created dwarf planet category to include Pluto and Ceres etc and there are about 5 to 7 dwarf planets now. We expect to discover several thousands of them going forward.
I am glad that Europeans won so that we do not need to memorise as many names of the planet. Now, let us move on to the next topic.
I saw moon travel plans and it makes me feel that I can actually visit the moon before I get too old.
Furthermore, some talk about exploring or even migrating to Mars. What do you think the challenges will be in executing exploration or migration to Mars.
Humans have only physically been to the moon and it is the celestial body closest to earth.
A light can reach to the moon in one second. It takes 3 days with a rocket. The last time a human traveled to the moon was December, 1972, when Apollo #17 landed.
There are 12 people who put their feet to surface of the moon.
They took off six times in total (Apollo #11 to #17) with a team of three people. Two of them landed and touched the moon while the other stayed in orbit.
Neil Armstrong passed away several years ago, and there are about 7 to 8 survivors now.
In 2018, a 3-day travel package to the moon will reportedly be launched where the passengers will stay in the spacecraft and travel along the orbit, although nothing has been official.
There are movements to initiate travel packages in private sector.
It takes 3 days to reach the moon and they stay there about 22 hours and come back as a part of 1 week package.
They ride on a very small rocket with no bathroom and kitchen.
Each passenger gets a customised seat and wear diapers. You can actually starve and survive a week.
We can still go to the moon at anytime we want by using the same technology in 1960s.
Yet, it takes minimum 7 to 8 months to go to Mars. You cannot wear diapers when you go to Mars.
You need a space to exercise because you will lose calcium and potassium in low gravity and get 5cm taller from soften bones.
and when you come back, you cannot walk. So, surviving on the way to Mars itself is a big deal.
NASA keeps postpone their plans send scientists to Mars from mid 2010s to 2020s then to 2030s.
However, private sector recently released their plans to visit Mars by mid or late 2020s.
In 2012, two dutch men founded a company named Mars One and they proposed two conditions.
First, they will utilised the existing technology to go to Mars. NASA has developed technologies and unmanned probes have been sent to Mars as well.
They will utilise these technologies to make it less expensive.
Second, it is one way travel. The biggest challenge is to survive during the round trip. Making it one way travel utilising the existing technology make it easier to achieve.
They said that they will financing the whole expense and started to recruit people who will go to Mars and never come back. Many Koreans also applied and tens of thousands of people applied.
They started auditions and narrowed down to 100 (50 men and 50 women) candidates after several years. Each participant had to pay the fee at a different rate based on how wealthy their country is.
Currently, they are in the process of eliminating them into 40. Yet, identifies of the 100 candidates are not known.
An American female who works at a software company declared that she will be the first person to give birth in Mars.
The plan is to send robots to Mars in mid 2020s to have them build houses where people can live in.
Then, they can send four people to Mars every two years over 10 years in total.
Once the first group arrives at Mars, they will work with robots to build habitats and this will continues.
In addition, Elon Musk proposed that he will bring 2,000 people to Mars to settle by mid 2020s.
Amazon, which has been a follower of Space X, declared to go to Mars because it looks cool.
There have been competitions among private companies over travelling to Mars.
Meanwhile, UAE proposed a 100 year plan last year. This country is an oil rich and proclaimed that they will build aerospace capacities in 21st-22nd century.
They plan to send unmanned probes to Mars by 2020s. Their ultimate goal is to migrate their 600,000 citizens to Mars in 100 years. It sounds like a science fiction story.
Anyway, what I have shared with you are big examples and there are other startups as well.
There have been combined efforts among the governments and private sectors to send people to Mars by 2020s or 2030s.
But anything that risks human life will always get postponed.
First of all, they will have to survive to arrive at Mars. Though they choose to go to Mars and live there, there are debates whether sending them is appropriate.
They need to be solved, but I wanted to inform you that all of these efforts in private sector.
It seems like no one in this room will buy the one-way ticket. I did some prep researches for this session.
I read an article about potential explorations on other planets such as Europa in addition to Mars.
What other planets we can try to explore other than Mars
In fact, astronomers are interested in every planet. Science has trends just like everything else and it is astrobiology.
Simply speaking, finding the aliens. Even when we send unmannered probes, the top priority is to find the aliens.
Mars has air, though it is thinner than that of earth. Therefore, wind blows, sleets, and ices are found under the ground. This is why Mars is the prime target.
Some satellites of Jupiter and Saturn showed conditions where living creatures can be found.
For example, Europa, which is one of the satellites of Jupiter, is very far from the sun.
Unlike to earth, Europa cannot get enough sunshines. It is cold and the surface is covered by ice, therefore, creatures can hardly live there.
However, there are evidence of cracks in ice and volcano eruptions.
The radius of the moon is about one fourth of the earth, and it is relatively a big satellite compared with the mother planet.
However, the satellites of Jupiter are a lot smaller than Jupiter, making them difficult to rotate their mother planet.
Tides are caused by the sun and moon. It is not just movements of waves, but the crust rises and falls around 30cm during this time.
Imagine this happens to satellites of Jupiter, which is much bigger than earth, during rotation. Needless to mention the crust, their inside mass will be entangled while rotating Jupiter
This creates geothermal heats and I think it will be warm inside. I think the heat could have melted the layers of ice, creating a big ocean larger than the earth underneath.
I think this ocean might have living creatures.
The water in Europa is salty and they might have north and south pole as well. With all that being said, there is a plan to send unmanned probes to Europa.
What we are looking for is to drill the ice layers to find living creatures underneath.
So there is a plan, but to be honest, it is a matter of setting the priorities.
I believe SETI where you work is a research institute that looks for aliens. Do you believe in aliens. What are your perspectives in alien and some rumours about them visiting the earth
Finding alien creatures is to find bacterias or microorganism.
But when it comes to finding aliens, SETI (The Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence) scientists look for aliens with intellectual capabilities.
Defining intelligence can be debatable. Maybe the first question we should ask is whether humans are intelligent.
It is very complicated. We try to find something that can build civilisation.
We do not seem to have any of them in the solar system based on the findings.
We talked about Roswell earlier and people talk about UFOs, but scientists believe that UFOs are not likely for several reasons.
First of all, it is too far. We talked about how it takes 6 - 7 months to reach Mars even when we travel by 20km/sec. And it takes 9 years to reach Pluto with the same speed.
We live in the solar system and there is the end of it. There is a rocket called Voyager 1, which was launched in 1977 and still travels to wards it.
It has been a while, but it still need to travel 30,000 more years to reach the end.
Anyways, we will need to find the aliens in other type of solar system, but nearest one is 4 light years away, which takes about 50,000 years to travel with Voyager 1.
So it is going to be really hard for aliens to travel.
Another possibility can be these aliens are highly civilised and can move the rockets very fast. Let us say 20% of the light speed.
Faster speed comes with stronger propelling, which is enabled by injecting more fuels per unit time to boost.
We computed how much energy it would require to travel to Alpha Centauri (4 light years away) in 1,000 or 10,000 years and we need to inject the entire solar system per second.
Pretty much you have to use all the solar system you pass by as the source of energy. Also we need materials that can endure such a high speed.
Even if we can reach in 1,000 years, we will not likely to live more than 100 years, therefore, it will be a mission for generations.
Yet, children barely listen to you. As the time passes, they will start to question the purpose of travel.
Have you seen an Wall-E. People had to leave the earth due to pollution and there are conspiracies to keep it polluted to prevent their return.
It does not work like that. We are not robots. We cannot just turn off the switch and put it back on.
Dr. Hawking argued that we should become human-robots in order to travel space.
The same obstacles also exist for the aliens to come to us.
If the aliens landed on the earth indeed, there should be legitimate evidences, given the significance of the events, but there is none.
People talk about conspiracies like Roswell etc. and the witnesses confessed the truth before they died.
Loch Ness Monster was actually made with briquettes and the bath tub and the witness took a picture after he made it by himself.
They also manipulated the picture in a way to make the monster look gigantic. Some people still visit the lakeside trying to find this monster.
In mystery circle case, a TV station filmed a documentary about this and two old men were able to build them in six hours
Similarly in Korea, someone made mystery circle in Chungju when Seo Tae Ji (Korean famous artist) releases the new album. You can easily make them by hiring two part-timers.
I stayed in Roswell, New Mexico for a week and I felt like something must come up after the second day and that is how quite the area is.
Even if UFO is there, we do not only eye-witness from the ground. It should be captured by the satellites in different angles and provide a conclusive image, but these are not available.
Finally, let me wrap up with describing the SETI method. I believe that visiting the aliens in person is the most preferred way, but not feasible due to restrictions.
In 1959, two astronomers released a research paper on how to discover the aliens. Let us say an alien astronomer observe the earth using radio telescope.
The earth reflects radio wave of the sun, which we refer to as natural radio signals. There are artificial radio waves as well due to TV, cell phone, radio, and airforce radar.
When we observe the alien planets and receives artificial signals other than the natural ones, it implies that someone developed and invented machines and they must have engineering background.
What SETI does is to search the artificial radio signals in the celestial bodies by using radio telescope.
So let us sum up that aliens currently do not exist. Now, I will let the audience ask questions, if there is any.
From the astronomical perspective, the earth, South Korea, Seoul, then Gangnam makes it look too. You also talk about light years, but we hardly live more than 100 years.
With your career, have you ever felt that humans are powerless before the universe or do you have different ways of viewing the humanity.
I think whoever study astronomy or science will give similar answers. As I mentioned earlier, studying the universe is a marvellous thing.
Yet, if you narrow down the scope to little things like earth, you feel futility.
I think confronting the nature comes with wonder and futility.
Even when we just stare at mountains or oceans, i think we all get similar feelings.
In order to overcome these mixed feelings, I believe peple needed to find values and purpose of life.
And people adopted religion or myth as tools to overcome the fears for thousands of years.
However, the advance of science made us realise that we and the universe are from the same elements eventually. These findings come with futility.
Scientists believe we should no longer rely on myth or religion and it is time for us to face the reality.
Once we accept the futile reality, we need to find the way to live. We can live in whatever way we want since everything will be gone anyway.
On the other hand, we talked about 13.8 billion years thing earlier.
Our body is made up with different elements such as hydrogen, carbon, and nitrogen. Especially, hydrogen was formed across the universe when it was 380,000 years old and never disappeared since then.
Astronomers make jokes whenever we drink water that we are drinking 13.8 billion year old water.
Also oxygen, nitrogen, carbon, sulfur, and phosphorus in our body are not from the earth.
They came from nebula where these elements were created and being recycled. For example, I breathe the same air that Einstein breathed in and exhaled.
We have continuously maintained intellectual beings, therefore, we are very special. If we own every single part of the universe, we should live out to the best.
Then, we start to think peace over wars. This is how the scientists create the value and purpose in their live rather than relying on religion or myth after confronting with the nature.
That is how I was trained as well. At the same time, I have a desire to live in whatever way I want, but it is better to live in peace with harmony.
Thanks for your great answer for a good question. Anyone else.
Thanks for your sharing today. I have a question on the Big Bang Theory. If you believe Big Bang theory is true, do you think time would have existed even before.
Also, do you have any on-going research on the time before Big Bang theory?
Your question is very smart. Yet, that question could have been stupid 15 years ago.
Science has trend as I mentioned earlier. People talk about multiverse theory in these days.
Multiverse includes multiple universes in addition to ours. It has no observational evidences, thus, is the field of mathematics than science.
We used to say the universe of its entirety, so making a statement about time before the universe was invalid.
Yet, multiverse theory is now accepted by many with relevant research papers.
You asked a smart question on the origin of the universe. The universe that we live is the universe. Big Bang theory is about the birth and expansion of the universe.
However, it does not talk about things that are generated by other sources than Big Bang theory.
Your question is about the origin of the universe, which is called cosmogony and we have several contexts behind it.
Yet, it is only a theory and has not been proven scientifically.
So if we use quantum mechanics to see the birth of the universe, it theoretically says our universe is one of the multiverse.
But we cannot observe multiverse because there should be exchanges among other universes, but there is not even a theoretical hint on it.
The last paper of Dr. Hawking is about methodology to observe multiverse and there are similar papers that discuss about the methodology.
Up to date, quantum mechanics and super-string theory naturally lead to multiverse theory.
There are theoretical basis to prove the origin of multiverse, but how to observe it is questionable at the moment.
Anyone else has a question?
So the simulation universe theory that Elon Musk talked about, I wonder how astrophysicist view it.
This is the extension of the previous question. In academic fields, multiverse just started to be accepted as a mathematical model. It is not something you will see on the textbook.
It is popular among the people. Astronomy and science relevant to the universe theory receive great attentions from people.
But, physics is all about solid state physics and these physicist do not give much public lecture. They already have enough money and things to do.
But astronomers need public attentions.
To be honest, multiverse or the origin of universe just got accepted by the academic field and is currently under research by few people.
Anyone has other questions
I am very interested in the universe. If I think about aliens, I tend to find aliens that are similar to humans.
You know there might be aliens in completely different forms from human, like in SF movies. What are the researchers view on this
Also, you mentioned about traveling to Mars. But I believe NASA released the research paper on Warp Drive about 1-2 years ago. I also wonder their view on this as well.
Warp Drive or anything close to speed of light is theoretical. Theoretically, scientists can make things that is as fast as the speed of light. But it is engineers who have to build them.
According to general theory of relativity, it is possible. Scientists finished their job in 1915. It is engineers who could not make it for 100 years.
Theoretical exploration is solid by using general theory of relativity.
For example, scientists say we can just bend a thing and make warp. But we need gravity to bend it and where we can get it from. So we have practical problems.
When the scientists finds a small possibility, they carefully release that information to the media.
But the reporters tend to exaggerate it. If something big and important happened, the entire world must have been focused on that topic only.
I think we should take a balanced view. Also, the creatures that we know from the universe are only found in earth. It is based on carbon, which is very flexible.
The problem is that we only have one sample, which is why we tend to find aliens that are similar to humans.
That is why Mars is very important. If we found bacterias and small creatures in Mars
and they have 20 amino acids just like the one in earth. Then we have two samples to compare with.
Then, astronomers generalise the finding once they obtain the second sample.
If they end up finding 15 amino acids, they might generalise that all the creatures are distinctive in the universe.
That is why the 2nd result is very important. Then, we can run simulations on the development of small creatures.
We only know one creature from the universe.
I know there are silicon based simulations but they are very unstable. Because carbons are flexible and most likely to be found. Electrons are easily attachable to carbons.
Though silicon has a similar array of electrons with that of carbons, but silicons are scarce.
If there are new creatures in other planet, they are likely be carbon based as well.
Thanks for all the questions. But it is a time to wrap up. So I will give you one short question. What is your current interests and what is your future plan
I have studied astronomy and published books. Recently, a group of 60-70 science journalists and novelists opened a science book cafe.
It opens on May 1st at Samchung-dong. We are centered on science and talk about cultures. I know science is not a friendly topic but we see science as a culture so we gather up and discuss.
My generation gained knowledge by reading books and that is why we opened a book cafe.
I think I will be doing this and meet people from book cafe or even science contents group later on for 1 to 2 years.
Thanks for your sharing Dr. Rhee. Please give him a big applause.
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