I have David Daggett, Attorney at Daggett Shuler Law, and he's gonna talk with us, primarily
about the topic of autonomous cars.
You've probably heard the phrase, but do we know what it really is and what's on the horizon
for that?
So, David, thanks for being with us today.
Yeah, thank you Cindy, thanks for having me.
This is an exciting topic.
It really is.
It really is.
Yeah, I used to watch the Jetsons when I was a little kid, are you old enough to have watched
the Jetsons?
Absolutely.
Okay.
Absolutely.
I don't know if kids today watch the Jetsons, but people flying around in spaceships and-
Yeah.
... taking the spaceships to work and that sort of thing.
It looks like the North Carolina legislature thinks that's just around the corner.
That's amazing.
But let me go backwards, what exactly is an autonomous car?
Because I'm not really sure, are you drive and/or stop it, or how involved is the driver?
Well it's interesting because we now have legislation that defines what an autonomous
vehicle is, our North Carolina Legislature has passed a statute regarding the use of
autonomous vehicles.
This statute goes into effect December 1, 2017, that's this year.
Wow.
So, an autonomous vehicle is a vehicle that's capable of controlling every aspect of vehicle
dynamics on the roadway, so, it can do everything.
Now- Wow.
Yeah, the statute that goes into effect has some specific criteria, it has to be able
to handle all dynamics of driving.
It has to remain on the scene and call for help in the case of an accident or something
like that.
So, it's got a definition of a number of things it can do.
But, basically, an autonomous vehicle under the statute has to be able to do everything
all by itself.
Back to my friend- That's incredible.
... Back to my friend George Jetson, so, yeah, the North Carolina Legislature has passed
this statute, so we are now regulated in our use of autonomous vehicles.
That's amazing.
Now, when is that going to go into effect?
What kind of cars are we going to have to buy to enable that?
Well, the statute goes into effect, December 1, 2017, however, currently, there are no
vehicles in existence that completely meet that criteria, so, again, this is an unusual
situation, where we have legislation that covers an issue that we don't know when it's
going to happen.
Boy, that's for sure.
But at least we're covered when it does happen.
But it is interesting, and as we know, Amazon.com is, they are testing different ways to deliver
faster and more efficiently.
Rider share services like Uber and Lyft, are experimenting with ways to have autonomous
vehicles deliver people.
We have Google and Apple, we hear reports that they are all working on autonomous vehicles,
so, even though our legislatures may have gotten a little ahead of themselves, and are
a little futuristic, it probably is on the horizon somewhere.
Wow.
Now, our statute is pretty interesting, under our statute, if you have an autonomous vehicle,
you do not have to be a licensed driver, to operate the vehicle, which is a little bit
of a misnomer, because you don't operate an autonomous vehicle.
Wow.
And, you can ride in an autonomous vehicle alone, as long as you are 12 years old or
older.
12 years old?
12 years old.
So, an autonomous vehicle, remember the definition, it handles virtually every aspect of vehicle
dynamics with no human input whatsoever, so our statute provides that, you know, you can
stick your 12 year old in your autonomous vehicle and drop them off at school.
That's unbelievable, but, you know, you mentioned before, the idea that it would stop if there
was an accident or something like that, so it's interesting to me, that the Legislature
would pass that, because a 12 year old, in an autonomous car that's involved in an accident,
I don't think has the maturity to deal with that.
Are you saying that this autonomous vehicle literally would take care of every aspect
of that vehicle, calling for help?
Yes.
Calling for help.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's a requirement on the statute.
Wow.
Is that the car has to be capable of doing that, so-
That's incredible.
... not only does it have to drive itself, but if there's a problem, it needs to call
for help.
Interesting.
Yeah, every aspect of vehicle dynamics.
Well, let me ask you this, because I had heard, I think in Pittsburgh, I'm not sure, where
they were testing some autonomous cars, but there was the opportunity for the driver to
override the system, so I guess that's not a fully autonomous car?
Well, yeah, and I'm not an engineer, but the Society of American Engineers, they have different
levels of autonomous vehicles.
Okay.
And to meet our statutory guidelines, it's gotta be SAE, Society of American Engineers,
Level 4 or 5- Okay.
... to meet those guidelines.
What's being experimented with in Pittsburgh, and I believe it's Uber, who's doing that-
Yes. ... and one of the Universities there, maybe
it's Carnegie Mellon, I'm not sure, one of the Universities working with it.
They're working with geo-fencing technology and an autonomous vehicle, that would be a
Level 4 SAE vehicle- Okay.
... that's getting a little technical.
Yeah.
But that would qualify as an autonomous vehicle, interestingly, under the new statute, remember
it's gotta be able to handle every aspect of dynamics of the vehicle, is that local
municipalities are prohibited from passing any additional laws regarding autonomous vehicles.
You know, it will be interesting to see with this geo-fencing technology, and some of the
new technology as it progresses, you know, some of these technologies, I know the name,
but I don't know the intricacies enough to pass that along-
Yeah.
... but, you know, the geo-fencing, we're hearing a lot about, with Google-
Yes. ...and-
Right.
... search engines and ad placement- Right.
... and that sort of thing.
There's no- Why don't you explain that?
Geo-fencing.
Well, I'm not sure I can, I'm not an expert on that, other than Google uses geography
to define the space- Okay.
... within which, it provides content to users.
Right.
And so, you program a geofence so content only goes to Winston-Salem North Carolina,
or only goes to Forsyth County in North Carolina, those sort of things.
What they've done in Pittsburgh, is they have geofenced an area to test an autonomous vehicle,
so they are using the same technology that search engines are using, but they are using
it to communicate with autonomous vehicles within a limited geographical range.
Yeah.
That may be the first thing we see.
Okay.
Our new statute could apply to an autonomous vehicle that's geofenced, let's say, near
our School of Science and Math- Okay.
... who may be at the cutting edge.
Interesting.
It could be that sort of thing that we first see, but, when I first saw the statute, I
just giggled a little bit, that we have a statute that covers something that does not
even exist right now.
That really is amazing.
And that 12 year olds can ride in a vehicle by themselves, and that no driver's license
is needed.
Another interesting thing is, if the autonomous vehicle violates any statutes, the registered
owner is responsible for that statutory violation.
Well, that doesn't make sense.
Well, does it or doesn't it?
I don't know, it certainly could open a can of worms.
Yes, it certainly could.
So you're saying, it doesn't ... I guess you have to do that, so basically, if the autonomous
car violates a speed limit, you're saying that the driver would get, or the person in
the car, would get the violation- No.
No. ... when they weren't even driving?
No.
No?
The registered owner- The registered owner?
... would get the ticket- That's right, because we've got 12 year olds
in the car.
The registered owner might not even be in the car, so, yeah, no, it's interesting.
I think it's a fascinating thing and it's a good lesson on the law, that one of the
things that the law does, in the law, it changes and it adapts to society-
Yes.
... where society is- Yes.
... and the law has to do that- Right.
You know, everybody asks me, and you know me, I'm in the middle of the road politically.
But they ask me regarding the Constitution, am I a strict constructionist, or do I believe
in [inaudible] of the Constitution and I said cause, yeah, I believe in the constitution,
but I don't think they ever thought about autonomous vehicles with 12 year olds riding
around.
Right.
The law has to adapt, to current and now even future circumstances, as a way to give society
a way to organize itself- Right.
... and rules to live by, and so, while we've joked a little bit about our Legislature and
this new statute that doesn't apply to anything yet, the flip side is, kind of proud of them
in being ahead of the curve on this- Yes.
... in starting to define what are going to be accepted principles in our society-
Right.
... when autonomous cars get out there.
Yeah.
Having this statute out early certainly gives the ability of ongoing debate, clarification,
refinement, so that when we do have these autonomous vehicles, society is better ready
to handle the various issues that we know are gonna come from having them on the roads.
Yeah, very interesting.
What about some of the dangers you foresee?
Well, you know, in the history of machines, machines always have problems of some sort,
and, it's hard for me to believe that these machines aren't gonna have problems in some
way.
You know, you take, and you know, I like our automotive manufacturers, I have nothing against
them, but how many times have you heard of somebody that got a car that's a lemon?
Or you have something with your car, that, you know, you have just an ongoing problem
that you're trying to troubleshoot and take care of.
Yeah.
Well, if that affects an autonomous car that's out on the road, you know, I think there could
be some problems.
Yeah.
Obviously, a fail safe that the automakers are, obviously ahead of me on thinking on
this, but a fail safe has to be, that when there's a problem the car pulls over and shuts
down, not just keeps rolling.
Yeah.
But it's gonna be interesting to see how all of this unfolds.
Yeah.
You know, I can't- It's coming one way or another.
It is.
You know, one thing ... without getting too deep, one of the things that's crossing
my mind, you've talked in the past about some of the current drive by different corporations
and things to require arbitration clauses, I wonder if we'll see any of that?
Where the manufacturers will require an arbitration clause, which I'm sure, you know, personal
injury lawyers would fight vehemently, and I believe should.
But that, that would be ... I just had a thought about that, that would not be good, but I
wonder if they'll do that- Yeah-
... in light of the fact that there might be a push to try and sue the manufacturer
for the accident as opposed- That's a whole other kettle of fish, that
would be a long program to get through.
Yeah.
Basically, what we're seeing is corporations trying to insert arbitration clauses in every
contract that they enter into, the reason is, is because it's easier and better for
the corporation, not necessarily, easier and better for the individual.
Yeah.
So, if you're looking after individual rights, you have to be very careful-
Yeah.
... about imposing an arbitration system that protects our civil rights.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's a very difficult thing to do, so, yep.
David, why do you think they passed his legislation now, because as you said, even though it's,
in my mind it does look good for the North Carolina legislature, that they're ahead of
the curve, on this, but why would they do this so soon, is there any reason?
Well, maybe they are trying to avoid the hot button issues, like taxes and health care
and all the other things that are going on, and this is one that was relatively easy,
with not any opposition, because, it doesn't even exist yet?
Yeah.
And, you know, it gets us forward thinking.
North Carolina- Yeah.
... has become a technology state- Yeah.
... and, you know, if we're going to get autonomous vehicles on the road, if we're gonna have
companies geo-fencing and testing autonomous vehicles, we want to have a statutory framework
in place, so that North Carolina can be at the leading edge of that curve.
Yeah.
So I think that's great then.
That's great.
Yeah.
Yeah.
The only thing in that legislation that I question is the age requirement.
Yeah, that was a little bit of a head scratcher for me, you know, is the autonomous car also
a, you know, a babysitter and a chauffer service?
Right.
You know, those sort of things.
Right.
But, you know, that's- Like in-
... it's George Jetson.
It's the Jetsons.
It's like instead of putting the iPad in front of the kid, you just put them in an autonomous
car and send them out for a couple of hours.
Yeah.
I assume there's some way the parent is gonna program this car, I don't know, I guess it's
all ... we'll wait to see.
Yeah, we'll see- So, the next question is, where can we get
these, they sound great?
Yeah, none exist right now.
Oh.
This vehicle that meets the statutory guidelines- Yeah.
... does not currently exist.
Interesting.
There are some limited tests going on, cars that are getting close to meeting the statutory
definition, but as of right now, this vehicle doesn't exist.
So, currently, there's no, even for a limited version, like they're testing out in Pittsburgh,
so, for right now, for the average person, are you saying there really is no way to get
your hands on one of these?
Yeah.
It doesn't exist.
Okay.
Okay.
It absolutely does not exist.
Very interesting.
Right.
Right.
But, we'll have to talk again when this, this comes to fruition, which I would guess is
gonna be a long time.
I can't wrap my head around this to tell you the truth.
No.
No, no, no, I can't either and the predictions I'm seeing is automakers saying 2021 at the
earliest.
Okay.
If that's the earliest, you know, before it becomes, you know, regular in society, I mean,
I look at things, how long did it take us to get just back up cameras in most vehicles?
Right.
Yeah.
I mean, it took 15 years for that to happen.
Yeah.
Now, technology is moving faster and faster, it's also gonna be very expensive, so there's
gonna be a financial barrier, so, I, you know, this isn't on the near horizon-
Yeah.
... but at some point it's coming.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well David relative to the idea of driving in traffic and things like that, if someone
were to have a question, how can they reach your office in regards to a legal issue?
They can reach us online at DaggettShulerLaw.com or we've got a great friendly staff at,
336-724-1234.
You definitely do.
Yep.
Well listen, thanks for being with us today.
Okay.
Thanks for having me, talk to you soon.
Okay.
Bye-bye.
Thanks everybody for joining us, if you have questions or comments, just leave them right
on this page and we'll make sure we answer them for you.
Thanks.
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