>> THE ASSOCIATED PRESS TONIGHT HAS DUELLING ANONYMOUS
STATEMENTS FROM THE WHITE HOUSE IN THE SAME ARTICLE.
ONE SAYING THAT THE UNITED STATES HAS CONCLUDED THAT RUSSIA
KNEW IN ADVANCE OF SYRIA'S CHEMICAL WEAPONS ATTACK.
AND THE OTHER SOURCE SAYING NO FINAL AMERICAN DETERMINATION HAS
BEEN MADE THAT RUSSIA KNEW AHEAD OF TIME THAT A CHEMICAL WEAPONS
WOULD BE USED. THERE IS NO WAY TO KNOW WHICH
ONE OF THOSE STATEMENTS IS TRUE. WHAT NO ONE IN THE WHITE HOUSE
IS SAYING ANONYMOUSLY OR OTHERWISE IS THAT WE KNOW THAT
RUSSIA DID NOT KNOW ABOUT THE CHEMICAL ATTACK BEFORE IT
OCCURRED. WHITE HOUSE NATIONAL SECURITY
ADVISER H.R. McMASTER SOUNDS LIKE HE DOESN'T BELIEVE IT IS
EVEN POSSIBLE THAT RUSSIA DID NOT KNOW ABOUT THE CHEMICAL
ATTACK AHEAD OF TIME. >> WHAT WE SHOULD DO IS ASK
RUSSIA HOW COULD IT BE IF YOU HAVE ADVISERS AT THAT AIRFIELD
THAT YOU DIDN'T KNOW THAT THE SYRIAN AIR FORCE WAS PREPARING
AND EXECUTING A MASS MURDER ATTACK WITH CHEMICAL WEAPONS.
>> THAT'S THE QUESTION THAT I ASKED ON THIS PROGRAM FRIDAY
NIGHT. HOW COULD IT POSSIBLY BE THAT
VLADIMIR PUTIN DID NOT KNOW THAT HIS CLIENT, BASHAR AL ASSAD WAS
GOING TO USE CHEMICAL WEAPONS. CHEMICAL WEAPONS THAT VLADIMIR
PUTIN HAD PROMISED THE WORLD NO LONGER EXISTED IN SYRIA.
HOW COULD ASSAD DARE TO EXPOSE THE FACT THAT HE STILL HAD
CHEMICAL WEAPONS WITHOUT VLADIMIR PUTIN'S PERMISSION TO
DO THAT? GENERAL McMASTER'S QUESTION THEN
RAISES ANOTHER QUESTION. WHY.
WHY WOULD VLADIMIR PUTIN AUTHORIZE THE USE OF CHEMICAL
WEAPONS IN SYRIA? WHY WOULD PRESIDENT ASSAD USE
CHEMICAL WEAPONS WHEN HE WAS DOING A PERFECTLY GOOD JOB OF
KILLING PEOPLE, BOMBING HOSPITALS, KILLING BABIES
WITHOUT CHEMICAL WEAPONS? ANOTHER VITALLY IMPORTANT
QUESTION IS DID THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION DO ANYTHING TO
INDICATE TO PRESIDENT ASSAD AND PRESIDENT PUTIN THAT THEY WERE
SO INTENT ON NOT INTERVENING IN SYRIA IN ANY WAY THAT PUTIN AND
ASSAD COULD GET AWAY WITH ANYTHING?
A WEEK BEFORE THE ATTACKS, REX TILLERSON WAS SAYING THAT
PRESIDENT ASSAD'S FUTURE SHOULD BE DECIDED BY THE SYRIAN PEOPLE.
>> ARE YOU WORRIED AT ALL THAT WAS TAKEN AS A GREEN LIGHT BY
ASSAD TO LAUNCH THAT CHEMICAL ATTACK?
>> GEORGE, I DON'T -- I DON'T SEE HOW THAT COULD BE THE CASE.
THIS IS NOT THE FIRST CHEMICAL ATTACK LAUNCHED BY ASSAD.
IN FACT, THERE WERE TWO OTHER CHEMICAL ATTACKS.
SO THIS WAS JUST THE LATEST IN A SERIES OF VIOLATIONS.
>> THE OTHER TWO ATTACKS WERE MINOR COMPARED TO LAST WEEK'S
ATTACK. AND THEY OCCURRED BEFORE REX
TILLERSON PUBLICLY SAID THAT IN EFFECT HE HAD NO PROBLEM WITH
ANYTHING ASSAD WAS DOING IN SYRIA.
>> PRESIDENT ASSAD, SHOULD HE STAY OR SHOULD HE GO?
>> I THINK THE STATUS AND THE LONGER TERM STATUS OF PRESIDENT
ASSAD WILL BE DECIDED BY THE SYRIAN PEOPLE.
>> SENATOR JOHN McCAIN BELIEVES THAT SAYING THINGS LIKE THAT WAS
A DEADLY MISTAKE. >> DO YOU THINK THE
ADMINISTRATION DID ANYTHING TO ENCOURAGE THIS BEHAVIOR BY THE
SYRIANS BY SAYING THAT THE SYRIAN PEOPLE WOULD DETERMINE
ASSAD'S FATE, AND THAT REMOVING HIM IS NOT A PRIORITY?
THINGS THAT WERE SAID BEFORE THE USE OF CHEMICAL WEAPONS.
>> I THINK IT WAS PARTIALLY TO BLAME.
I AND SECRETARY TILLERSON BASICALLY SAYING THE SAME THING
AFTER KIND OF CONTRADICTING HIMSELF AND SAYING THE SAME
THING ARGUES VIGOROUSLY FOR A PLAN AND A STRATEGY.
>> SO HOW DOES THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION REALLY FEEL ABOUT
REGIME CHANGE IN SYRIA? >> A REGIME CHANGE IS SOMETHING
THAT WE THINK IS GOING TO HAPPEN BECAUSE ALL OF THE PARTIES ARE
GOING TO SEE THAT ASSAD'S NOT THE LEADER THAT NEEDS TO BE
TAKING PLACE FOR SYRIA. >> IN NO WAY DO WE SEE PEACE IN
THAT AREA WITH ASSAD AS THE HEAD OF THE SYRIAN GOVERNMENT.
>> SO TONIGHT THE TRUMP DOCTRINE OF FOREIGN POLICY IS FINALLY
CLEAR. IT WAS ENUNCIATED TODAY BY
SECRETARY OF STATE REX TILLERSON IN ITALY AND SEAN SPICER AT THE
WHITE HOUSE. >> WE'RE GOING REDEDICATE
OURSELVES TO HOLDING TO ACCOUNT ANY AND ALL WHO COMMIT CRIMES
AGAINST THE INNOCENTS ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD.
>> WE'RE NOT JUST GOING TO BECOME THE WORLD'S POLICEMAN
RUNNING AROUND THE WORLD, BUT WE HAVE TO HAVE A CLEAR AND DEFINED
NATIONAL INTEREST WHEREVER WE ACT.
AND THAT IT'S OUR NATIONAL SECURITY FIRST AND FOREMOST THAT
HAS TO DEAL WITH HOW WE ACT. >> JOINING US NOW, STEVE
CLEMMONS, EDITOR AT LARGE AT THE ATLANTIC AND AN MSNBC
CONTRIBUTOR. ALSO WITH US MALCOLM NANCE,
MSNBC COUNTERTERRORISM AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST.
AND JOAN WALSH, NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT AT THE NATION AND
AN MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST. MALCOLM, FIRST TO YOU ON THE
QUESTION OF WHAT DID VLADIMIR PUTIN KNOW AND WHEN HE KNOW IT.
DO YOU SHARE GENERAL McMASTER'S FEELING THAT IT SEEMS TO HIM
VERY, VERY HARD TO BELIEVE THAT ASSAD WOULD HAVE USED CHEMICAL
WEAPONS WITHOUT PUTIN KNOWING IT AHEAD OF TIME?
>> YES, I SHARE HIS POINT OF VIEW.
AND THERE IS A REASON THAT I DO SO.
PRINCIPALLY BECAUSE SHAYRAT AIRFIELD IS A VERY SMALL
AIRFIELD. IT HAS TWO RUNWAYS.
IT HAS 25 VETMENTS. WHEN YOU USE CHEMICAL WEAPONS ON
AN AIRCRAFT, YOU TO DO VERY SPECIAL HANDLING.
YOU HAVE TO HAVE DECONTAMINATION UNITS THAT FOLLOW THE AIRCRAFT.
EVERYBODY HAS TO BE WEARING GAS MASKS.
YOU DO NOT WANT TO BE ON THE FLIGHT LINE IF ONE OF THESE
THINGS EXPOSES, RIGHT? SO THE RUSSIANS WOULD SEE ALL OF
THIS COMING FROM THE ARSENAL, MOVE ON TO THE AIRCRAFT, GO TO A
SPECIAL HANDLING AREA, USE SPECIAL AIRCRAFT CONTROLS FOR IT
TO TAKE OFF, AND THEN FLY OFF ON TO ITS TARGET AND DELIVERY.
THERE IS NO WAY RUSSIA COULD NOT HAVE KNOWN THAT.
ALSO, WE MAY HAVE INTELLIGENCE THAT COMES FROM THE GROUND ON
THAT BASE FROM THE SYRIAN LEVEL THAT INDICATES THAT THEY WERE
EITHER OPERATING WITH THITH THE RUSSIANS, MAYBE THE RUSSIANS
WERE OPERATING THE DECON UNITS, THE DECONTAMINATION UNITS, BUT
THERE IS JUST NO WAY. WE PROBABLY HAVE VERY GOOD
INTELLIGENCE. THAT COMES FROM THE McMASTER
SIDE. THE POLITICAL SIDE IS SAYING WE
DON'T KNOW. SO I'M GOING TO GO WITH THE
McMASTER CAMP ON THIS ONE. >> STEVE CLEMENS, IF YOU GO TO
THE SPOT WHERE VLADIMIR PUTIN WAS AWARE OF THE CHEMICAL WEAPON
ATTACK AHEAD OF TIME, TOLD ASSAD IT WAS OKAY, IN EFFECT, BOTH OF
THOSE MEN, PUTIN AND ASSAD HAD TO THINK THEN WHAT?
THEN WHAT HAPPENS? WHAT DOES THE UNITED STATES DO?
WHAT DOES PRESIDENT TRUMP DO? >> I THINK VLADIMIR PUTIN HAD --
IF HE KNEW, AND WE'RE SPECULATING HERE.
BUT IF HE KNEW, HE HAD ONE OF TWO THINGS ON HIS MIND.
ONE WAS TO TEST THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.
I THINK THERE ARE A LOT OF PLAYERS THOUGHT THE WORLD THAT
WANT TO TEST THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION AND SEE WHAT
HE'LL DO. OR TO CHANGE THE CONVERSATION IN
THE UNITED STATES. AND THAT GETS VERY CREEPY IF YOU
GO DOWN THAT ROAD. BUT I THINK THAT TO SOME DEGREE,
YOU KNOW, I AGREE WITH EVERYTHING MALCOLM SAID.
BUT PERHAPS MORE FERVENTLY, SYRIA IS A WHOLLY OWNED RUSSIAN
SUBSIDIARY. >> RIGHT.
>> NOTHING HAPPENS IN THAT COUNTRY WITHOUT VLADIMIR PUTIN
REALLY SIGNING OFF AND KNOWING. YOU KNOW, ASSAD DOING WHAT HE
DID IS AN EMBARRASSMENT TO RUSSIA IF RUSSIA WERE IN FACT
CONCERNED ABOUT WITH THE NOTION THAT THEY WERE SUPPOSED TO HAVE
RID SYRIA OF ALL OF ITS CHEMICAL WEAPONS.
SO IN MY VIEW, PUTIN WAS EITHER CHANGING THE CONVERSATION HERE
IN THIS COUNTRY ON THE RUSSIA INVESTIGATION OF THINGS OR HE
WAS TESTING TRUMP. AND THAT TAKES IT DOWN THIS
COURSE. BECAUSE IF YOU LOOK AT THE
ATTACK THAT WE MADE WITH THOSE TOMAHAWK MISSILES, IT WAS A
POLITE ATTACK. WE DIDN'T CRATER THE RUNWAY.
WE USED EXCUSES OF THE COST OF THE TOMAHAWK MISSILES AS AN
EXCUSE FOR THAT. WE MADE SURE THAT MOST EVERYONE
WAS OUT OF THE WAY. IT WAS A POLITE ATTACK.
IT WAS A PINPRICK. AND SO IF IT WAS IN FACT
SUPPOSED TO BE A DETERRING EFFECT TO PREEMPT ANY FURTHER
USE OF CHEMICAL WEAPONS OR THE KINDS OF ASSAULTS AGAINST
CIVILIANS THAT BASHAR AL ASSAD WAS LAUNCHING, THEN I THINK IT
WAS A FAILURE. AND SO WE'RE LEFT WITH THIS
CONUNDRUM. >> AND JOAN, EVERYTHING STEVE
JUST SAID, I WAS RAISING FRIDAY NIGHT ON THIS PROGRAM.
>> I SAW. >> AND THE NEXT DAY "THE
WASHINGTON POST" WAS ABSOLUTELY OUTRAGED THAT THE QUESTION COULD
EVEN BE ASKED. THEY DID THIS STORY, I DON'T
KNOW IF IT WAS IN THE PRINT EDITION OR ONLINE SAYING THAT I
WAS ADVANCING A CONSPIRACY THEORY WHEN I WAS ASKED A
CONSPIRACY QUESTION. >> RIGHT.
>> WHICH IS A DIFFERENT THING. STEVE JUST TOOK A STRONGER
POSITION ON IT THAN I DID. SO STEVE, I'M WARNING YOU, THE
"WASHINGTON POST." >> I WAS SAYING IT'S CALLS FOR
SPECULATION. >> EXACTLY.
BUT "THE WASHINGTON POST" IS COMING TO GET YOU BECAUSE
APPARENTLY -- >> I'M NOT SAYING THAT HAPPENED.
>> I UNDERSTAND. I UNDERSTAND.
BUT APPARENTLY AS OF SATURDAY MORNING, THE "WASHINGTON POST"
AND OTHERS IN THE MEDIA WERE NOT EVEN SLIGHTLY INTERESTED IN THE
QUESTION THAT GENERAL McMASTER RAISED.
WITHOUT HIM RAISING IT, I'M NOT SURE ANYBODY -- WELCOME, HAVE
TAKEN IT SERIOUSLY. >> WOULD HAVE GOTTEN INTO THE
QUESTION OF WHAT DID VLADIMIR PUTIN KNOW IN ADVANCE OF THIS
ATTACK. AND I HAVE TO SAY FROM THE
START, AS I WAS WATCHING THE ATTACK, IT WAS INCONCEIVABLE TO
ME THAT VLADIMIR PUTIN WOULD NOT KNOW BEFORE ASSAD DID THIS,
WHICH THEN RAISES THE QUESTION OF MOTIVATION.
AND I THINK THE LINES THAT STEVE JUST DREW OR THE HYPOTHETICAL
LINES FROM THAT MOTIVATION MADE PERFECT SENSE.
>> THEY DO. >> TRAGIC SENSE.
>> TRAGIC SENSE. AND WE ARE SPECULATING.
BUT OTHERWISE, THIS MAKES NO SENSE, LAWRENCE.
>> THAT'S YOUR ALTERNATIVE. >> THIS MAKES NO SENSE.
THE FACTS THAT WE HAVE PUTTING THEM TOGETHER, IT MAKES NO
SENSE. IT'S NOT AN AIR STRIKE.
IT WAS LIKE A FACEBOOK POKE BACK IN THE OLD DAYS.
THEY COULD USE THE AIRSTRIP WITHIN 36 HOURS.
AND THEY ARE ALREADY USING IT. WE DON'T KNOW IF OUR POLICY HAS
CHANGED. NIKKI HALEY SAYS ONE THING, YES,
WE'VE GOT TO GET HIM OUT. AND REX TILLERSON SAYS SOMETHING
VERY DIFFERENT. SAYS THE POLICY HASN'T CHANGED.
THEN SAYS WE ARE GOING TO GO AROUND THE WORLD PROTECTING
PEOPLE. IN THIS LAST CLIP YOU SHOWED,
WHICH I HADN'T EVEN SEEN. >> IT'S STUNNING.
STEVE, TO THAT POINT, REX TILLERSON TODAY SAYING THAT WE
REDEDICATE OURSELVES TO BASICALLY -- REDEDICATING
OURSELVES TO HOLDING TO ACCOUNT ANY AND ALL WHO COMMIT CRIMES
AGAINST INNOCENTS ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD.
AND THEN SEAN SPICER SAYS WE'RE NOT GOING TO BE THE POLICEMEN OF
THE WORLD. >> YOU KNOW, IN A CERTAIN SENSE,
THE EXPLANATION THAT PUTIN IS TESTING THIS WHITE HOUSE COULD
VERY WELL BE TRUE. BECAUSE YOU'RE SEEING SUCH ODD,
STRANGE CONFLICTING BEHAVIOR AND COMMENTS FROM PEOPLE WITHIN,
AROUND DONALD TRUMP. AND YOU'RE SEEING LIKE H.R.
McMASTER REALLY RISE. YOU'RE SEEING NIKKI HALEY AS THE
SECRETARY OF STATE WE OUGHT TO HAVE.
AND REX TILLERSON PERHAPS SHOULD BE SENT TO ANOTHER EMBASSY NEAR
SINGAPORE. I MEAN, IT'S ONE OF THESE THINGS
WHEN YOU SORT OF LOOK AT THE DEMEANOR AND THE POSTURE, THE
COMMENTS FROM THOSE AROUND THE PRESIDENT.
IT'S CLEARLY NOT BEING SCRIPTED. McMASTER IS ASKING EXACTLY THE
RIGHT QUESTIONS. HE IS PUTTING FORTH EXACTLY THE
RIGHT THINGS. AND YOU SEE AN INDEPENDENCE OF
MIND AND CRITICAL THINKING AND ASKING ALL THE RIGHT THINGS.
SO I'M HEARTENED BY THAT. I'M HEARTENED BY NIKKI HALEY AND
HOW SHE HAS DONE THIS. BUT I'M NOT -- I HAVE TO SAY,
TILLERSONTO SOME DEGREE, AND HE
IS GOING TO BE IN MOSCOW, HE IS GOING TO BE TALKING TO VLADIMIR
PUTIN WHICH IS ANOTHER ODD MOMENT IN ALL THIS, IT IS
BIZARRE. >> IT'S AS IF THEY WERE
BASICALLY BEING GIVEN ORAL EXAMS ABOUT FOREIGN POLICY.
AND TILLERSON IS JUST PICKING QUESTIONS OUT OF MULTIPLE CHOICE
POSSIBILITIES. MALCOLM, WHAT HAVE THE RUSSIANS
LEARNED ABOUT THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION?
WHAT DID ASSAD LEARN ABOUT THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION LAST WEEK?
>> WELL, I'LL TELL YOU, THEY'VE GOTTEN A LESSON IN FUTILITY OUT
OF THIS ADMINISTRATION. THAT CRUISE MISSILE ATTACK, AND
I'VE TAKEN PART IN ATTACKS. I'VE TAKEN PART IN ATTACK
PLANNING. WE FIRED OFF THE MISSILES.
WE HIT THE TARGETS WE AIMED AT. IT WAS THE TARGETS WE AIMED AT
HAD ZERO EFFECT TO DISABLE OR DESTROY THAT AIR BASE.
IT HAD ZERO EFFECT IN KILLING OR INJURING ANY OF THE HANDLING
CREWS THAT ACTUALLY EFFECTED THAT WEAPONS ATTACK.
AND IT DID NOT KILL ANYBODY RELATED TO THE LAUNCH AND
RECOVERY OF THOSE AIRCRAFT. THAT'S A MISSION FAILURE.
IF YOU PLANNED IT THAT WAY, YOU PLANNED FOR FAILURE.
OH, FINALLY, ONE OTHER THING. WE DID NOT STRIKE THE CHEMICAL
WEAPONS. WE DIDN'T USE ANY OF THE WEAPON
SYSTEMS WE HAVE IN OUR INVENTORY DESIGNED TO DESTROY AND CONSUME
CHEMICAL WEAPONS WITH THERMOBARIC EFFECT.
WE DIDN'T EVEN TRY THAT. SO THE EFFECT OF THAT WAS TO
SHOW THAT WE HAVE THE ABILITY TO LAUNCH CRUISE MISSILES, WHICH IS
RIDICULOUS, BECAUSE WE'VE LAUNCHED THOUSANDS OF CRUISE
MISSILES IN THE LAST 15 YEARS. BUT FOR THE RUSSIANS AND THE
SYRIANS, THEY SEE THAT TRUMP IS JUST NOT PLAYING SERIOUS.
AND ONE OTHER THING, IF I COULD JUST MAKE ONE LAST POINT.
WHEN THE SYRIANS LAUNCHED THAT CHEMICAL WEAPONS STRIKE USING AN
AIRCRAFT, WHAT DID THEY INTEND TO DO OTHER THAN TO SHOW --
PROJECT A MESSAGE TO THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION VIA THE RUSSIANS
ALSO THAT THEY HAVE CHEMICAL WEAPONS?
IT HAD NO TACTICAL EFFECT ON THE GROUND.
IT JUST KILLED CIVILIANS. THEY COULD HAVE DONE THAT WITH
REGULAR BOMBS. THAT'S A STRATEGIC DECISION MADE
BY ASSAD. AND ASSAD CAN'T MAKE THAT
DECISION WITHOUT VLADIMIR PUTIN. THEY COORDINATED IT.
THEY TESTED IT. AND THEN TRUMP RESPONDS BY, ONE
WARN THEM THAT HE WAS GOING TO ATTACK, LETTING THEM GET OFF THE
BASE AND NOT DOING ANYTHING OTHER THAN BREAKING UP SOME
CONCRETE REVETMENTS. MISSION FAILURE.
>> AND AT THE END OF ALL THAT, DONALD TRUMP COMES OUT ON THE
RIGHT END OF A POLL. "WASHINGTON POST"/ABC NEWS POLL,
DO YOU SUPPORT PRESIDENT TRUMP'S MISSILE STRIKE IN SYRIA?
51% SUPPORT. 40% OPPOSE.
AND JOAN WALSH, WHEN YOU'RE WRITING THE FULL STORY, THAT IS
ONE OF THE SPOTS WHERE IT ENDS IS THAT DONALD TRUMP WAS ABLE TO
DO SOMETHING THAT THE POLLS RESPONDED TO IN A POSITIVE WAY.
>> AND THAT PUNDITS RESPONDED TO FOR -- NOT ALL OF US, BUT MANY
OF US IN A POSITIVE WAY. EVEN SOME DEMOCRATS RESPONDED TO
IT IN A POSITIVE WAY. IT'S LIKE THERE WAS THIS PENT-UP
DEMAND. BARACK OBAMA DIDN'T DO IT.
PEOPLE WERE HAPPY TO SEE HIM DO IT.
EVEN THOUGH IT MAKES NO SENSE AND THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO
STRATEGY, APPARENT STRATEGY BEHIND IT.
BUT PEOPLE HAVE SUCH A LOW BAR NOW AND SEEM TO BE INVESTED IN
DONALD TRUMP EITHER MAKING A PIVOT OR APPEARING PRESIDENTIAL.
SIMPLY WHEN HE DOES A THING THAT OTHER PRESIDENTS HAVE DONE LIKE
USING MISSILES, HE BECOMES PRESIDENTIAL.
THE REAL PRESIDENTIAL THING IN MY OPINI OPINION IS OFTEN RESTR
AND WOULD HAVE BEEN IN THIS CASE.
BUT HE'S GOT GOOD POLL NUMBERS. THAT'S GREAT.
>> WE'RE GOING DO HAVE TO WORK ON A BREAK.
STEVE CLEMENS, THANKS FOR JOINING US TONIGHT.
LET'S DOUBLE UNDERLINE. YOU WERE NOT ASSERTING FACTS OR
IN YOUR FIRST ANSWER TONIGHT. YOU WERE TAKING MOTIVATIONS AND
SAYING HERE IS A LOGIC SET TO APPLY TO THESE POSSIBLE
MOTIVATIONS. >> ABSOLUTELY.
THANK YOU, LAWRENCE FOR MAK


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