Sandie: Everyone, I know there are a lot of other things you could be doing, and if you've been here since 9:00 am,
you're probably very, very tired, but this is the WNDB-sponsored panel and unlike all of the other pop stage
events, we unfortunately do not have any books or swag for you. Although, I am giving out one tote bag at the end of the session [audience laughter]
if you make it to the very end. But such is the life being a member of a nonprofit organization.
So how many of you are familiar with WNDB?
Yay, so I don't even know if I have to read the mission then but I will read the description which is that,
We Need Diverse Books is a grassroots organization of children's book lovers that advocates essential changes in the publishing industry
to produce and promote literature that reflects and honors the lives of all young people.
Our mission: putting more books featuring diverse characters into the hands of all children.
So I am Sandie [unintelligible] Chen. I'm the co-chair of the panels committee
along with Alex Gino, who many of you may know as the author of George and another book that comes out
later on this year. And I am the token non MLS on this stage.
So, this is our wonderful group of panelists, and they are actually each going to introduce themselves.
Alia: I actually don't have an MLS either.
Sandie: Oh, good. [audience laughter] Alia: Just so you know. Sandy: That makes me feel better.
Hi my name's Alia Jones, and I'm a senior library services assistant with the Cincinnati library system in Hamilton county. It's nice to meet you.
Hi everybody my name is Tori Ogawa, and I'm a children's librarian and the Harold W McGraw Junior Fellow at Darien Library in Connecticut.
Hi. Soraya Silverman-Montano. I'm the services department head with the Las Vegas Clark County Library District.
I also just started my Nevada Library Association presidency. So, about a month in, yay.
My name is Amy Reyes, and I am a children's librarian, actually here in Colorado, yay. [soft audience cheering]
Hi, everyone. My name is Sarah Park Dahlen and I'm an associate professor
in the Master of Library and Information Science program at Saint Catherine University in Saint Paul, Minnesota.
Lots of saints. [audience chuckling[
Sandie: Okay, so today we are going to talk to all of the various people on our panel about how
best practice is, and how we promote and highlight diverse books without necessarily
having just a special display that says Diverse Books. So, the first and sort of obvious question is,
why should appealing to diverse readers be important to all librarians even if they serve less diverse schools and communities?
And I'm going to throw this to you, Tori, since I know you work in Darien, and I just made that joke about Aryans and Dariens. [audience laughter]
Tori: So, if you don't know Darien, Connecticut, it is a primarily white community.
It's a very wealthy community. There's not a lot of diversity. The diversity does come from the different surrounding cities or towns
but we primarily service a poor, white community, but I think it's important because
if they don't get diverse books in there, where are they ever going to
see somebody of a different color, see somebody of a different background than them, and then when they encounter somebody in life,
how are they going to react?
It's just like, we do get questions. We had a parent--
We had a display of the We Need Diverse Books and we just used the logo, and they're like, 'why do you have this up?'
Like, 'there's not a big Jewish community here, why are you putting up a Jewish book?'
or 'there's not a lot of lot of Black people here, why are you doing this?'
'Why are you trying to push this on kids?' And we're like, 'well, I mean, we're not trying to shove it down their throats, but we're giving them the opportunity to
see diversity and just help them to learn and learn empathy and learn what other people go through and their experiences.
I'm not trying to make your kid read it, but I'd like to give them the choice.'
And I think they should too. But just trying to educate parents as well.
By putting books on display, it educates parents about giving their kids the opportunity to read diverse books as well.
Sandie: Anyone else on the panel want to chime in?
Sarah: I think what Tori said was really great and also we have to remember that not all kinds of diversities are visible.
There might be people who, you know the example that you used was Jewish and people might be white-presenting but might be Jewish, right.
And so I think it's really important for us to remember that there are all kinds of different kinds of diversity.
The word intersectionality is really important to remember, that people have different aspects of our identities
And they might be in our communities and those people also deserve to see different aspects of themselves in the books that they read.
Alia: And also, it's important to remember that diversity isn't just ethnic and racial.
We also have people with disabilities. We also have people with different sexual and gender diversity.
So, you know you also have to think about the importance of that
and that even if that community is mostly white, there's also people from those communities, too.
Sandie: Soraya or Amy?
Amy: I don't think it's news, the idea of windows and mirrors.
We all want to find protagonists that we identify with.
For me, when I read Hunger Games, I wasn't into it until I found out that Katniss and I had the same birthday. [audience chuckling]
That could be your mirror. And windows are also important too as we've already been discussing,
like seeing and sharing this global community, even if your neighborhood is predominantly one quote-unquote type of people.
I like what John Green says, there is no them; there's only facets of us.
So, we need to experience those other lives that might be a little bit different than ours just so that we can see just how similar we actually are.
Alia: And if you haven't read Dr. Rudine Sims Bishop's essay, "Windows, Mirrors, and Sliding Glass Doors,"
it's from 1990. Look that up, Windows, MIrrors, and Sliding Glass Doors, it's really good.
Soraya: I was going to reference that. She stole my thought [audience chuckling], but I actually,
in my previous branch, I made diversity displays, but they weren't framed that way.
I just picked, I modified Dr. Rudine's quote on mirrors and doors and kept it as 'diverse books open up your world.'
And honestly, it wasn't anything other than that. I put a variety of topics out, and they weren't labeled otherwise and those things
I swear, I stocked them every. single. day. It was a predominantly white community.
There was no questions on why we have this, it was just, this opens doors. That's how it was framed
and constantly refilling those displays, so.
Sandie: Well I was gonna say that what Soraya said actually brings us to our next question which is similar,
It's how do you take diversity into consideration in your programming and displays and also,
are there barriers to overcome when it comes to highlighting diversity and also syllabi? I know Sarah is going to talk about that.
Soraya: I'll jump in on this. So, my previous role as librarian,
I managed all the pages of our branch and one of their active goals as a daily duty was, we have a ton of
front-facing books, just on every entry of every category within our collections. And so I said,
I want you to find characters that are diverse on the cover. Like just highlighting them, putting them on display.
It wasn't anything, it wasn't even my diversity displays, it was just our regular collections.
Because It's important for little kids to walk by and notice, 'oh, this person looks like me,' like, weird concept.
But in programming specifically as well, I do storytime every week
I don't explicitly do, I don't do the diversity storytimes,
I just have storytimes with diverse characters, and it's not focused on any specific culture or identity.
It's that they feature everyday human beings doing everyday situations who happen to be diverse because that's that's who we are.
My family is half Muslim, half Jewish.
My husband's family is Catholic. I'm half Malaysian, half Lithuanian. My husband's Filipino.
I'm a mix of everything. I love seeing myself. I don't see myself very often in books, but I know I feel a small joy when I do.
So, if I can provide that for a child, I'm going to make every opportunity to do so.
Alia: I'd like to add on to that, It's super easy just to go up and down your shelves and pull out diverse books.
Just having that representation there is really important, walking up and down for kids to see that image, see that representation.
And it's not hard to do, and that's one easy way to start in your branch.
I was just gonna say that my branch is predominantly Black, and it's in a more lower income neighborhood.
So I was talking to a couple kids about what they like and they're like, 'we kind of like funny books,' so I started to think.
You know, they're Black boys, how many funny Black boy books can I find. So I've started,
- yeah, just like silly stuff - so I did like a Black boy joy display.
Because I thought maybe they might relate to that, so you know just thinking about your demographics of
your library is also important and trying to put up something they might relate to.
Tori: I think also just in your displays not necessarily centering it around diversity, but putting
people of diversity in like, a fantasy display or like, adventure display
and just being intentional about what you're selecting off your shelf to be a front-facing book within your displays.
I think that definitely is a good way to incorporate it.
And for us to start and think about that more as we build new displays every two weeks or every month and just keeping that in mind.
Sarah: So I'm gonna talk briefly about the barriers.
So, when I plan my syllabi I have to make sure that my area libraries
have the books that I want my students to read because a lot of them
borrow books. They don't buy them from the library and so when I want to put a book by, for example, a smaller
publisher on my syllabi, I have to look it up in all the area
libraries and count to see to make sure that there are like 20 or more copies, and if they aren't available then
I really have to think about assigning that book. If there are say, 10 copies available, and I'm going to have 20 students
then that means I have to tell my students, 'there are only going to be 10 copies available.
We have to figure something out. Are, you know, half of you willing to buy the book? Etc etc.'
So you know Hennepin County is the
biggest library system in Minnesota, and they are pretty phenomenal about buying a lot of diverse books.
And I really appreciate that but smaller systems might not be able to.
The example that I like to share is the year that I assigned
Tim Tingles' How I Became a Ghost. I think Hennepin County had, because it was a smaller press,
and he was like, I mean, he's a very well-known and very well-respected author now,
but at the time that I first assigned his book,
he was not quite as well-known, and there were 15 copies of How I Became a Ghost in the library.
So I had to think about that and also at the same time
another person who's not Native but who had written a book that same year. similar sort of in terms of content and time period as How I Became a Ghost
had many more copies of the book, but I wanted to assign Tim Tingle. I wanted to assign someone who was an own-voices on the story.
So things like that can be a barrier to what I put on my syllabi.
And if I can't expose my students, who are future children's librarians, to the great diversity of books we have,
then the ripple effect of that is that then the children who they serve might not, get a whole lot of exposure as well.
Sandie: Okay, so
obviously, I think
most of us can answer this question ourselves, but I have to ask it, which is,
what are some examples of what not to do when it comes to diverse titles other than having them only out in February? [audience chuckling]
Soraya: Don't. label. them. as. diverse. titles.
Because you never know. Let's say you have a young person who identifies
as, you know, not cisgender
and you label your LGBTQ books and their family doesn't know and he
wants to just find books he identifies with and suddenly you've outed them, so
don't. label. them.
There's better ways to get that information out there, get those books into children's hands.
But don't explicitly label.
Amy: I think we already kind of touched on this earlier, but
don't assume that diversity means out facing diversity.
There's many different types of diversity and so be sure to include all of them,
not just like was said, not just February. It's not just Black History Month.
There's so many different types of diversity and intersectional diversity. Like there are
learning-disabled Hispanic kids, and there are D/deaf and hard-of-hearing Black kids, and they need all of those stories.
Alia: I think it's also important to be aware of avoiding stereotypes in certain diverse books because
just because a book is diverse doesn't mean that it's a good book.
Beware. I'd say do your research, you know?
Look for own-voices titles.
Look for reviews in journals. But not only that, be aware that journals often privilege
people who are not from the community that write about the subject they're writing about.
So, know that there's so many great people writing about diverse books online.
If you need resources afterwards we could give them to you, but yeah, a lot of people writing about great diverse books
maybe that you haven't found or know about. So do your research before you put the books up.
Sarah: Following that, I think also knowing what terminology to use is really important and I,
when I first saw all the book displays that were labeled "Books from Shithole Countries," I was like, 'yay, librarians, promoting books!"
but then I was like, 'oh wait. Let's not use that language.'
And so then I started seeing more
images of libraries and bookstores that were promoting books from Nigeria, books from [etc sound] and books set in different--
The language really, really matters. We don't need to say "shithole"
over and over and over again, right. And the other thing, like right now, something that's going on
is the Lunar New Year.
And so if you're making a display about that, is your display, does it say Chinese New Year
or does it say Lunar New Year? So being very inclusive and thoughtful about the terminology that you use also when you're doing your diversity displays.
Tori: I have to say, don't assume that someone doesn't want to read it because it's not about them
or it doesn't reflect them or something like that. Don't assume
that just because it's diverse that they won't want it. A lot of times
I think we get stuck in this place where it's like, 'Oh, it's
not what, I don't think they're gonna want to read it because there's a Black character or an Asian character
and they're white.' Don't assume that. They might want to read it, so just offer it to them. Don't be afraid to
put it in their hand and it'll be their choice to take it or not, but you gave them that choice.
I think sometimes we forget that when you just assume, 'I'm not even gonna offer that title because I don't think they'll want it.'
I think that's a lesson that I needed to learn as a new librarian, so.
Alia: Kind of to go off on that, I've only been in libraries a very short time.
I was a indie children's book seller for two years, so I got really stubborn about just giving people diverse books.
If they asked me for a book on space, 'hey, here's a book about space with a Black kid.' [panelists and audience chuckling]
So you know, but that's what they wanted, but I just kind of diversified
maybe what, you know, they were getting. Kind of just to throw some other things in there that maybe they didn't know about.
So, that's important, too.
Soraya: I would say on that, if you have any buying power or the ability to recommend titles --
a lot of mainstream publishers may not carry as many diverse books as a smaller imprint or a smaller publisher
so going out of your way to be knowledgeable and aware what's out there, and what's being published
and making those suggestions to your collection development people.
So, I don't know if you're familiar with Salaam Reads, but they are a fabulous Muslim imprint.
I have been pushing titles to my collection development people all year since I saw them at Midwinter last year, I believe.
And we've purchased several titles, so it's very exciting. But be aware.
Sandie: And WNDB does have resources for librarians if they need recommendations on what books that they would like to stock.
And so my next question for you guys is, I know that, Soraya, you touched a little bit upon this when you spoke about storytime,
but can you give everybody some concrete examples of how you integrate and highlight diverse titles in your collections programming classes?
Soraya: Definitely. Storytime's my favorite part of my job.
So like I said, I actively go out of my way to make sure that the titles I'm presenting -- it's not always possible for all the titles -- but
at least one of them features diverse children or diverse families.
I actually presented at Annual last year for Storytime Underground, when we had our first pre conference ever.
It was on diversity in storytime without it being a diverse storytime. If you have the ability to do that in your system, fabulous.
Not everyone does but we can all take active steps to making our storytimes more inclusive and more diverse.
So if you would like, I do have that PowerPoint available, it's online.
It's hosted through Storytime Underground's blogs, so if you search for it, it'll pop up. But I believe I did
16 different thematic storytimes on diverse characters and diverse themes.
Lots of great recommendations if you need a starting point but again, not advertised. Like one of them was about making mistakes.
How it's okay to make mistakes, but I featured Todd Parr's It's Okay to Make Mistakes.
And a book by -- oh my gosh, I'm going to forget her name --
it's called That's Not How You Do It, and she has a
Asian and French last name -- sorry, guys, I'm gonna butcher it.
But anyway, the theme is on how it's okay to make mistakes
and nothing to do with diversity but both titles are very diverse. And kids identified very -- I had one kid actually come up during that one and be like,
'Oh, that identifies with my culture.' So it's a Japanese culture and
That's Not How You Do It is the story. So, you never know what audience you're reaching by making those,
they're small steps, but they're, you're being intentional. And they can make a big impact.
Amy: One thing we just started at my library with storytimes in particular is
we aren't doing themes anymore. I know that that's like a big deal to a lot of children's librarians.
And it was for me for like the first four and a half years of my professional career.
I was all about theme and the rhymes are gonna match the books and the crafts is gonna go with it.
And I decided, you know, there are a lot of really amazing books that I end up not getting to share as frequently as I would like because I've
hamstrung myself to a theme and my patrons don't actually care.
So by doing away with themes not only do we get to repeat the same songs and rhymes together over the course of the month
so that they really know them by the end -- and that's great for their early literacy --
it means that I get to share those awesome and more diverse titles that I wasn't getting to share as frequently before.
Tori: I think on more of a concrete side of display examples, we've done things like,
Travel Around the World, and then we put books of characters that are around the world, so that they can get a window into different cultures from different places.
And it's like they're taking a tiny vacation.
Or doing read-a-likes, like For People Who Loved Harry Potter,
but then incorporating diverse titles that way so it's more focused on "because you liked Harry Potter,"
there are these other things, and you're not specifically focusing on diversity.
But you're harping in on their love for the fantasy and the wizardry or the magic or whatever it is.
And I think, I think it was back to another question.
It's hard for us. We like to do diverse programs, and we like to bring in
performers from different cultures, like a Chinese New Year Lion dance or something like that.
But we often see that those programs are not well attended and that's really discouraging to us.
But then there's one person who comes up and is like, 'that was the best program. Thank you for doing this.'
So I think that makes it worth it when you're touching one family or one child or one parent and they're really thankful
that you included their culture or gave them a look into this, it makes it all worth it.
And you should just keep doing it and keep bringing those people in and
don't get discouraged about that. Don't stop doing it.
Alia: It can be something as simple as picking a diverse book for your book of the month, you know.
That way you get a lot of people reading one title, one good title.
And Sarah, didn't you say something about double shelving?
Sarah: Yes, so Cynthia Leitich Smith, the author, she has a section on her website where she talks about the concept of double shelving.
And basically the idea is, if you have a book that is considered diverse,
then you put it, like you shelve it in both, sort of like your juvenile general collection
as well as -- say if you have a set of separate section
that's Native American authors or something like that -- then you would also put it there.
And she, you know, she also says, we know you don't have unlimited budgets, but if you really care about this,
then you will put your money where your mouth is. Buy multiple copies. Buy one for the general section. Buy one for the specific section.
Buy another for a display. You know, really put it in multiple places so that it'll be discoverable in multiple ways.
You know, I don't do library book displays and programming things like that, but just on the question of
how I prepare my students. So, I teach a separate social justice and children's and young adult literature class.
So it's a lot easier to just talk about diversity all the time, but then in my general classes
I also integrate as much diversity as possible. And so I'll put things like -- oh god, I can't even think --
So if we were talking about A Different Pond by Bao Phi, I might not put that under [makes quote fingers] Vietnamese Refugees, I would put that under
Minnesota Authors because I always have a section where I highlight Minnesota authors for my Minnesota future librarians.
And I also --
Part of their assignment when they read these books is that one student has to do a lot of
research on that book, on the author, the illustrator,
the context in which that book is taking place, as well as the time period in which it was written because that might influence
what you see or don't see in the book. And then that student is responsible to educate the rest of the class on those issues.
So, for example, if we're reading Walter Dean Myers' Fallen Angels, my students have to research not only the Vietnam War and all of its
complexities, but they also have to research Black males in the military and to teach us about that.
So I encourage my students whenever they give their presentations that their research has to be multi-faceted.
This is not just a book about a Vietnamese boy going fishing with his dad in Minnesota.
There's so much more to that book than just those things so that's what I do.
I hope that prepares my students to think really broadly about all the different complexities of the books that we read.
Sandie: So we're gonna switch gears a little bit and talk about the p-word, which in our world means
"problematic," right. So, how do you handle problematic books,
particularly if they're popular or maybe they're even bestsellers so -- and actually maybe start off by saying what you consider
problematic, because I think that no everybody shares the same idea of what that means.
[panelist laughter as no one speaks up] Sandie: not all at once. Soraya: [Off mic: no one wants to buckle down on that.]
I will say there's a lot of [makes quote fingers] classic literature
that's still on a bunch of reading lists. So whenever I get a student that comes in looking for Little House on the Prairie or
Indian in the Cupboard
I'll ask, 'Oh, what school do you go to? What grade are you in?' And I try to find that teacher's name. And I'll email them to say,
'Hey, I know you're busy, you have a lot on your plate.
Just as a recommendation from my perspective as a librarian, I would highly recommend
considering other titles that may still reflect the
whatever you're trying to teach your students from this story, but that it is problematic.
I don't usually get responses, sadly, but I have a couple times. [audience chuckling]
And I have a good relationship with a lot of the schools in our area, so I feel like that rapport really helps bring that
[makes quote fingers] touchy conversation to light.
But it is important, and we, I'll tell the students as well, 'like I know this is on your reading assignment
but if you'd like
similar literature that is
more accurately reflected or more --
I don't, they don't understand problematic when you're in second grade.
But I'll try to recommend similar titles to them and be like, 'hey, this is much, I prefer this book much more. I think it's a better read.'
Tori: So I think my direct supervisor's very good at handling things like this.
If there's a parent that comes in -- The Little House on the Prairie book is the perfect example. It's like,
oh, they read it as a kid,
so it's like a cherished thing, right? And you're like, you don't want to be like, 'no you shouldn't read that.'
But I think you set them up and say, 'well, how long has it been since you've read this book?
Maybe things politically and the times have changed, or you know, things are not as politically correct in that book anymore.
But if you want to read it just know, be aware, but maybe it'll start a bigger conversation
with your child and have that conversation
if you're going to read this with you know, start that conversation about
maybe why this is inappropriate or problematic anymore in today's -- I mean it was probably always problematic
but it wasn't recognized as that -- but you know, start that conversation with your kids.
It's a good way to start, you know, talking about it.'
Alia: Well first of all, I think it involves research again,
figuring out why a book might be considered problematic.
Looking for multiple perspectives and ideas about why a book is outdated. Why even though it might have just came out two months ago,
It's getting a lot of pushback for being insensitive.
So educate yourself as best as you can in order to figure out why people have issues with books.
And for me, as far as dealing with problematic books, I just don't recommend them. [audience chuckling] I know that's kind of obvious.
But like, as a bookseller, like if a kid were looking for a certain book and I know
that that type of book involves a book
that I know is problematic, I won't recommend it, you know. So they might find it on their own later
but for me, I don't have to recommend that book to them because I know that it's not necessarily that great.
So that's just what I do. I try to educate myself.
Sandie: So our next question is, and we spoke a little bit about this earlier,
which is that some kinds of diversity get a lot of, for lack of a better word, airplay. We talk a lot about
the lack of regional and ethnic diversity in books but
there are other kinds of diversity that maybe don't get talked about as much and how can we help promote books about less obvious kinds of diversity:
religion, disability, even socioeconomic status?
Soraya: Like Alia said, you gotta research. We can't know everything.
And have that repertoire. If you're not, if you're not knowledgeable about what's out there,
you can't recommend it, you can't make active efforts to bring those communities to light.
So, you know there's plenty of great blogs,
We Need Diverse Books is obviously one of them, but the CCBC puts out a great report every year on diverse titles.
It's pretty expansive in terms of the communities that it focuses on,
but you have to actively make those efforts. They're not gonna come to you.
Because, to be fair, there aren't a lot out there that we can pull from in general.
So, if you're not making those steps then you're never going to know, you're never going to be able to share those titles because you don't know they exist.
Alia: And maybe take the titles that you do know and integrate them into other kinds of displays.
So, for example, Hena Khan's Golden Domes and Silver Lanterns,
put that into a display about shapes, or you know, colors and things, you know.
So, knowing the titles and then taking them outside of the context that they might always be in.
Because that's also a book about religion. It's a book about a lot of different things.
So putting them in displays that you might not normally put them in is a way to get them to a new reader.
Sarah: And I have sort of mixed feelings about this because, number one,
I think we are operating on the assumption that there are lots and lots of books to choose from and there still are not as many as we should have,
especially from own-voices. And the other thing is findability, right, discoverability.
So, how are libraries, and reviewers as well, right,
how are the publishers, reviewers, and libraries labeling books in such a way to make them findable?
And so I think some of the software that's out there, some of the websites that are that are out there now are really helping us to do that.
We just need to be on top of it to make sure that we can find the books that fit the criteria that we're looking for.
So, I think if anyone here is in technical services or cataloging.
that's really important. Like how do we label books? My graduate assistants, and I, or my graduate students
and I did a research study recently where we were looking for Asian American teen literature and
we tried different ways of finding the books in a particular library catalog and we came up with different results.
Like if we use the word Asian, or if we used the word Thai or if we use the word whatever.
And then we also did manual searches and looked at summaries and we came up with completely different lists.
And so, how are these books being catalogued so that we can even find them in the first place?
Sandie: So this is our last question
and then we would love to hear some questions from the audience if you have them.
So, last year at ALA, the Soho publisher said in a panel, quote 'diverse books aren't for diverse people, diverse books are for everyone.'
Right? So it's a pretty universal statement that we hope everybody here believes.
And yet with that in mind how do we keep one another accountable when it comes to diversity?
Because it seems like an easy thing to say and to hear and to agree to
but then in practice, like everyone has been saying, it can be very difficult to actually find the book sometimes.
Tori: I think within your own whatever workspace in your department, to keep each other accountable, if you see something missing, say something.
To whoever, if you're not the collector -- because I'm not the collector in our department
But I noticed that I'm the one --
I'm half Japanese half Filipino, and I didn't see a lot of those Asian American books in our collection.
And I said something and now we have some series.
Or you know things like that. So just making it a point to say,
'Hey, I don't see this. Can we buy some books?' Or if you have buying power,
talk to your co-workers or talk to your patrons and your people and see what's missing and then
show each other new books. Like our collector does keep us accountable by being like,
'Hey, did you see that this just came out?' and she's like, 'this is the perfect title.'
There was something about a homeless family
and how -- I forget what the title of the book is but -- the father and mother go to shelters.
And she's like, 'this is just a lovely book, like I think you guys need to see this.'
So she keeps us accountable by making us read it
at some point in the day and being like, 'hey, just be aware that this is out there now.'
[Off mic: Alia tells Tori the name of the book and Tori thanks her.]
Alia: That book is called Still a Family. [Off mic: Tori tells her she's bad at titles and Alia reassures her it's okay.]
Soraya: I would say, also, you have to have those hard conversations with your colleagues who may not be on the same page as you are.
There's a lot of people who are still very outdated and very old school
who may reject the idea just immediately, but.
You know if you need backup on that,
obviously ALA supports us, ALSC supports us. Bring that information to your supervisors if you're not the supervisor.
I mean like, look, these are modern day standards, and we are not meeting them.
We need to have these conversations to get people on board because otherwise nothing's gonna change.
They're gonna -- until they retire or leave, everything gonna stay the same.
So, it may be awkward and maybe you're not in a position of power so it's uncomfortable
But ALA gives you that support, it gives you that research, those studies, that information.
Bring it to them and be, 'look, it's not me, I swear. It's the profession as a whole.'
We gotta make those active steps.
Amy: I think, too, as we're doing weeding, we have an opportunity to go through our collections
make sure that stuff that's really problematic gets taken out, for one and then, for two,
stuff that's not circulating well but is a high quality diverse book,
then that's one that we know, 'hey this one, first picked for my next display or my next book bundle or my next
storytime. When I have an opportunity to share this book I will.''
There's several times that I'm weeding where I'm like,
'I don't want to think my community's racist,
but there's a lot of really good books about people of color that are not getting checked out.'
So it's a good opportunity for me to see what's not circing and then be able to
highlight those, and hopefully highlight them well so that my community sees what good resources they are.
Sarah: Yeah, I think we have to keep speaking up, and I'm really glad Soraya gave the example of writing to the teacher.
So after the Tim Tingle thing in my local library, I wrote to Hennepin County and I asked them about why
did we have so few copies of Tim Tingle's books and so many copies of this other book and they wrote back a
really really really thoughtful, like very comprehensive answer which opened up a new line of communication for me.
And now we have really great conversations about books, and I think our collection development person is doing a phenomenal job. But you know,
I spoke up and they responded and we engaged in this. And so I think it's important for all of us to remember that we have to communicate our discontent.
Because if we don't then other people might not know, like they might not see some of the things that we see that are problematic.
And we have to believe one another too.
Like if I say something in an Asian-American book is problematic, I hope you believe me.
I hope that we believe people who have the lived experiences of particular
conditions or whatever when they say that this representation is really hurtful.
I really hope that we can believe one another and then do something about it.
I was really taken by Grace Lin's blog posts about how terrible
-- not terrible, well terrible -- but also like orientalist and racist Tikki Tikki Tembo is.
I don't know how many people have actually read that and have done something about it in their libraries.
So I think we have to be vigilant and just keep talking about the things that are problematic so that we can all keep learning and then doing something about it.
Alia: I think, to kind of go on what you said, communicate your discontent, but also communicate your successes.
Show what's working.
Like, for example, right now we have a lot of really great books up for Black History Month,
and my manager was like, 'oh my god, like people are really responding to them,' I'm like, 'yeah, I know.' [audience and panelist laughter]
The community's just really happy to see themselves represented in our branch.
And kind of to go back to your quote, you said diverse books are -- or that person said -- diverse books are FOR everyone.
I would say diverse books ARE everyone, and I think that's important to remember, diverse books reflect our world. This is our world.
So, librarians, you gotta BE about diversity, not be trendy. You gotta be about it. You got to care about it.
It's got to be about in every aspect of how you think about collections management, making displays, programming.
You know, it's got -- you've gotta really be about it for it to make a difference.
Sandie: Thank you so much to all of you for coming here and listening to our wonderful panel. We hope a few of you have questions.
[Looking out in the audience and chuckling in surprise] Oh! Okay.
Thank you. My name is Kaitlin and I work for the New York Public Library.
And I do a series where diverse authors come and talk about their favorite diverse books.
But I'm having a really hard time getting people to come.
Do you have any suggestions?
Soraya: How are you marketing it?
Kaitlin: So we've put up fliers. We've reached out to other, obviously, other libraries in our system. We've reached out to Brooklyn Public Library.
We've presented it both to, like families as an event for you to come to with your children.
The ones that have teen authors coming, we've presented it as like, 'cool teen authors are coming, you should come see them.'
The ones that are in general, we're like, 'librarians, this could be a professional development for you. Teachers, this could be professional development for you.'
It's just, nothing seems to be working.
Soraya: Yeah, I was gonna say, maybe the day it's being offered, the time it's being offered.
Like, are you timing it with your -- if it's a children's author -- are you timing it with your storytime [unintelligible]?
Because you feel like it could trend? You can just sub a storytime for that week and put in that instead.
Kaitlin: That's true. That's a good idea. Soraya: You already have a built-in audience there. Kaitlin:That's a great idea. Thank you.
[Librarian]: Hello. And hello, fellow Ohioan up there.
Alia: [waves] Hey. Librarian: Hey.
I work in Avon Lake, Ohio. It is a very un-diverse community.
So this question is more specifically for people who work in predominantly white, upper-middle-class, you know, Christian communities. [Sandie points at Tori.]
[As Tori gives a little hand wave.] Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I like to say that I have been very conscious about buying a lot of diverse books and
putting them out there and putting them in my readers advisory panel and putting them on display and
giving them to the patrons and putting them in the teens hands. I'm young adult services so.
And something troubling that I've actually been seeing specifically, what's happening is that I will recommend, you know, diverse books
and you know, put them in the teen's hands.
Then they'll say, 'oh, thank you,' and then they will put them down and walk away.
And you know, it's -- or I will have them on display, and they will consistently be on display multiple times,
like Piecing Me Together actually, by Renee Watson, putting it up. Multiple times it's been on display, and it's had like two circs in two years.
So I guess I'm asking about roadblocks. What you get, I'm getting really frustrated about it.
Other-- you know I keep trying and trying, and it's just, it is not, it's not working.
I have a Social Justice Book Club that I'm doing,
that I started last month. And so right when I get back from, to Cleveland from, you know, from here
we'll have another meeting and attendance has been very, very low.
So we got, you know, I have a nice little core group of kids,
but there's only three of them, so. And there's a lot of students that come after school.
So, are there other other things that I could be doing?
It seems like when I put them on display, they just get they just get passed over consistently and consistently.
I feel like, I feel like I'm not doing all, you know.
Alia: I don't know if I really have a suggestion, but I would say just having them there is important. [Librarian: Thank you.]
I mean, just for those kids to see that representation.
They might not be picking it up or they might flip through it. They might see something they've never thought about.
So keep doing that. It's, I know it's not easy.
But you gotta keep pushing through, keep repping diversity. Keep being about it. That's all.
Librarian: Thank you, and I will not, and I will not necessarily weed them.
It's my discretion. But it's hard to justify when you have such low circ numbers, and I have limited space.
You know, I don't want to say goodbye to Walter Dean Myers, but it's it's very difficult when to justify.
Luckily, I don't have to, I don't have to do that, but I--
Tori: I mean, it seems like you're doing all you can by --
like, I don't know, maybe change the way you're displaying it, like highlight it in a different way.
And I'm sure you're probably doing that, like changing how you represent it, you know, like
highlighting it in a different matter of, like, 'it's not just about this, but hey, like it's an adventure book' or whatever it is.
I'm sure you're probably doing that. Don't be discouraged.
I mean, if it's circing at least to somebody, you're reaching somebody, you know. [Librarian: Thanks, yeah.]
I mean, I felt that because there's this book like Cora Cooks Pancit and it's about a Filipino girl.
And I was like, this is like the first book I've seen that represents me and I'm an adult, you know.
So it's like, but no one's checked it out, like hardly anybody our community.
But I kept putting it up in our new book display, on the top so that somebody would see it and check it out.
And then you know every couple weeks it went,
it went, and I was like, 'oh, yay, somebody's reading it.' So, I mean, you're getting to somebody, just keep doing it.'
Don't be discouraged. Librarian: Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate it.
Amy: I totally feel your pain, too.
There are many books that according to circ stats I should have weeded the first year I started working at my library that are still on the shelves
because I insist that one of these days someone is going to check that book out and see themselves
or see a culture that they have never experienced and find people that they still fall in love with.
So I'm determined to hold on to some of them.
One thing I would say, and I know this probably sounds awful,
but I wouldn't call it Social Justice Book Club, just because "social justice" comes with a certain amount of political baggage
and you're missing kids that need that the most.
Because their parents see Social Justice Book Club and say, 'nah, that's not for my family.'
Which is sadly true.
If you just change it to Teen Book Club you might be surprised by how many kids come and
suddenly enjoy the diverse books you're recommending
because they stumbled into it.
Sandie: Any other questions?
My name's Mary. I'm a children's librarian from Minneapolis, Minnesota, from the county library system
and my question is about reviewers, book reviewers and about book review journals,
and how you guys feel about calling out whiteness in addition to calling out
other areas of diversity and kind of just your thoughts about,
you know, that white is not just considered the default. And if you're a book reviewer, kind of advice for how to make all the books findable and yet use your words.
You know, it's so hard to write book reviews concisely and whatever. So, thoughts, please. Thank you.
Sandie: How many of you write book reviews? [Alia, Tori, and Amy raise their hands with Soraya doing a "kinda" gesture.]
And how many of you write book reviews for Kirkus or one of the other journals? [Tori and Amy raise their hands] Okay.
[points to the panelists] So, one of you who does that should be [unintelligible].
Amy: I don't like assuming that white is not the default.
That all cultures need to be represented and even within whiteness there are many shades and tones of whiteness.
There's, you know, working class. There's upper-middle class, like you can't assume
upper middle class Christian white in this country anymore. So, assuming any ethnic background, I think is
faulty. So, I like calling out all the different types of diversity within books because
sort of it gives the cataloger something to go off of to help with those finding aids that we can find, like
maybe the publisher only put that this is Thai American literature,
but maybe it's also Filipino, maybe they're, you know, mixed ethnicity.
Maybe it's also about neurodiversity. Maybe it's not just one thing.
So the more that we can call that stuff out, the more tools we give to catalogers to help find those things,
the more we give tools to teachers to help find those things,
and the more we give tools to patrons who are really forward-thinking and actually looking for those things.
Soraya: I don't review but I would say, honestly, we as individuals make a huge impact. If you write to Kirkus, you write to School Journal, you say,
'look, I want to see more diverse reviewers. I want to see more diverse titles.' They listen.
They may not read in detail everything, but they listen.
And the negative feedback that has come to certain titles in the last few years has really hit some of these reviewers hard.
So it's on their radar. They're aware. I don't know how many are making as many initiatives as they should, but it is on the radar.
So the more that we vocalize that this is a necessity that we need, the more oomph we're gonna have behind it.
Also, be a reviewer yourself. You know, it's not as hard as you think.
Especially if you're framing it as, 'I am a Muslim Jewish Malay Lithuanian
person and I would love to review some titles for you from that diverse perspective.'
I'm pretty sure they're gonna take you into more consideration because they're actively seeking that or they should be anyway.
So make your voices heard.
Amy: I want to say a quick plug.
I just happen to know. I won't speak for Vicki, my editor,
but we're actually looking for religiously diverse people. I'm reviewing a book right now where the lead character
is Mexican American like I am, overweight like I am, but she's Wiccan like I am NOT [panelists and audience chuckling]
And I cannot speak to the accuracy of how Wicca is portrayed in this particular book. Even though, it's a huge part of the plot.
So, religiously diverse, ideologically diverse, ethnically diverse, neurodiverse,
whatever you are, reach out, we might have space for you. And if nothing else blog about it.
Alia: I just want to say that as far as calling out whiteness,
I mean, publishing is extremely white. That's the reality. Publishing-- [Sarah: Seventy-nine percent.]
Yeah, publishing and reviewing, it is extremely white. So we need more diverse reviewers.
So, I mean, like you said, apply.
And don't worry about the review journals, blog yourself. Write for yourself. Take the books and put out your ideas yourself.
But as far as review journals go, I'd say they're working on it.
I really know that they're making an effort to hire more diverse reviewers and to kind of
police themselves from within to try to become more inclusive and diverse.
Sarah: And I think a great resource to consider is Melinda Lo's blog post,
something, I forgot the exact title, but it's something about diversity in book reviews.
So if you just google her name and diversity in book reviews, I think you'll find her blog post.
It's a four-part series of essays that she wrote where she looked at
book reviews from the industry, and how they talked about diversity.
And I think reading the way she analyzed these book reviews will help all of us
to be more critical readers of book reviews and to understand where people might have problems writing about diverse books.
So one of the things that she found was that some reviewers were having trouble with intersectionality,
as if someone couldn't be Chinese and disabled and a lesbian and, you know, like, low-income.
As if people like that don't actually exist.
And so learning how to be a critical consumer of book reviews, I think is also important.
And, personally for me, I actually prefer if book reviews do tell me a lot about what's going on
in terms of diversity because I want to be able to find those books.
I can't tell you how many times, as a researcher of Asian American children's books, I've struggled to find,
like I've had to go deep into my research in order to find books that were even, that I even wanted to include in my study
because everything I found -- like maybe book reviews didn't say anything,the catalog didn't say anything.
I'd have to get the book into my hands and then I'd have to dig into the book to -- And it just, you know, I just want someone to tell me that this character is Korean.
That means a lot to me, especially as someone who never saw a Korean person when I was reading as a kid.
So I just want someone to tell me, 'this is a Korean character.'
That's not all she is but it's a lot. It means a lot if that's what she is.
Sandie: So I can't believe it happened, but our time is actually up.
But I do have one little tote bag and three little buttons.
If you happen to have a diverse title that you love love love
and you raise your hand and recommend it now,
whoever stands up and says it will get this tote bag. [points to audience member] Yes!
[As audience member starts speaking off mic] Oh my wait for the microphone 'cause I'm the only one who heard that.
Audience member: We're coming out with a book at Charlesbridge called Like Vanessa.
It's written by Tammy Charles, and it's about her, it's a semi autobiographical book about her experiences
being a young girl watching the first black Miss America win a pageant and how she decided she wanted to become just like Vanessa Williams.
Sandie: Excellent. Thank you.
You get a tote bag. I wish I could be like Oprah and say you get a tote bag and you get a tote bag [panelists and audience laugter]
But sadly, I only have one tote bag. So, thank you guys very much. Please, a round of applause for all the amazing panelists.[clapping]
And we might be lingering around. And if you look up really quickly, you'll actually see the editors from Kirkus leaving.
[Everyone waves] Bye! So now you know who to write to if you would like to be a reviewer for Kirkus.
Thank you guys for coming to our panel.
And we hope that if you decide to share on social media, that you will tag We Need Diverse Books at @diversebooks on Twitter
and feel free to, you know, introduce yourselves to us.
And Alia you wanted to say something?
Alia: Yeah, I just wanted to say, you know I've mentioned a lot of diverse reviewers and their blogs.
I made a really awesome PowerPoint with Sam Bloom right here, where we listed a lot of really great blogs and websites to find quality, diverse, own-voices books.
So if you're interested in seeing that PowerPoint, just come up to me. I can give you my website where I have it and we can talk.
Sandie: Alright, thank you very much. [clapping]
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