Christian Tissier is a French Aikido practitioner.
One of the very few non-Japanese in history to have reached the title of 8th Dan Shihan.
He started Aikido at the age of 11
and is now one of the biggest influences of the international Aikido community.
Willing to get to the roots of his art,
he embarked on a trans-Siberian train at the age of 18 for a journey to Japan
and started to train at the Aikikai Hombu Dojo,
where he stayed for 7 years, honing his skills and learning the language and culture of Japan.
Now, at the age of 67, he gives seminars all around the globe, throughout the year, including Japan.
It is on one of these occasions that he offered us the opportunity to sit together in the legendary Butokuden of Kyoto,
to talk about his personal relation to Aikido for over an hour.
From the experience you had in Japan while you were there and given how foreigners were treated etc,
did you think Japan would ever open up the way it did?
I never asked myself the question, I never asked myself that question because...
Perhaps because I have no imagination,
but...
because when I arrived, things were that way.
I never anticipated...
For me...
I don't know, I imagine when you want to go to Japan, you are 30-35 years old - in Japan or in another field,
so you get ready, you get an idea of it:
"What am I going to find, how am I going to do";
Naively, I did not research much; I learned some Japanese but... I took some books, but...
I didn't know what I was going to find.
And everything I though I would find was different.
So...
I went with the flow,
I was there, I was in a...
in a rhythm, the morning, the afternoon, training and that's it!
My job on the side, training, training and then little by little... that's it.
Without judging, without...
Without... well, especially without judgment.
There were many things that I was not understanding. I was not understanding.
Have you never tried to be, as it happens to many foreigners, more Japanese than Japanese?
It happened, but I corrected it very quickly.
Very very quickly.
Very very quickly because...
We are "tatamised" as we say, [Jordy: yes, we say that too...]
I lived the Japanese way of course, I lived on the tatami mats,
but...
Never, no. But it can happen sometimes. You've just arrived there, you're a kid...
a guy stamps the ticket... you (bows the head)
No! At some point, you tell yourselves "No need".
Everyone has his place, right...
It's a little like what I explain in my teaching as well, right?
Do not feel sorry for yourself either, OK? so...
Everyone has a status, everyone has a place,
in your practice you acquire... you are what you are, you are neither higher nor lower,
that's it, period.
So, you practice a movement with someone, with a Senpai, with a Sensei
that's it, he does the movement, you participate in the action, you react as you have to react,
but you do not victimize yourself, do not...
You must remain what you are, with all your sincerity, and...
So in everyday life it's a little bit the same:
first you have to observe,
so you come, you watch, you see how people behave,
and you see how people behave in relation to certain things.
I mean, when you are 18-19 years old you arrive... well, you see how a young person of 18-19 years behaves.
And a gentleman who is 45-50 years old, you see how he behaves in relationships.
So if you're paying attention to that,
well, you're not 45, you're 18.
So that's it, you...
But on the other hand,
you did not receive the same education, so you will inevitably make mistakes.
How far you will bow, how...
Back home too, you adjust...
If there's sincerity, freshness,
even if there is something wrong, it's alright.
Whereas if it's just monkey see, monkey do...
It's a little too much...
Even personally after a while I think that when you imitate and you're not sincere it's...
Yes, because you lose your own identity, you see.
I mean, I think that the mix of cultures is...
There's nothing better,
because you add a culture to your own.
You improve yourself and it improves your own culture at the same time.
Do you understand what I mean?
But if you lose a certain...
identity for something that is not truly your culture either, it's complicated.
It's complicated, you don't know where you are anymore.
I understand this very well,
it's something that echoes in me a lot...
It's important, yes, it's important...
I had a period when I was not well,
I was close to stopping everything, to leave.
And it's by realizing that and refocusing on...
To stop defining yourself...
in opposition...
and to define yourself with more...
more sincerity,
to tell to people what you sincerely want to do, and...
it helped a lot...
That's right, because in fact rules of politeness in a general way, are used to...
are used not to put barriers between people, but for communication to flow better, OK?
And actually, the less freshness there is, the less sincerity there is, the more you need rules, OK?
... to make up for it. So you have to adjust those...
well, what comes from your heart,
and at the same time, what is holding you back so that it makes just what you need, you see?
And it's complicated, because I travel a lot.
It's very very different.
There are many countries where people touch each other a lot...
In Spain, in Italy...
they touch each other.
In the United States... even though they are dressed like us, have the same culture and watch the same movies...
If you have a problem with someone, I don't know, you'll say:
"I'm sorry, it wasn't on purpose", but if you touch the shoulder, it's an aggression.
It's...
So that's why...
To observe...
Well, is the person able to receive what you... how you say it...
It's this communication...
It's also Aikido actually...
It's this communication which is difficult.
Here (in Japan) it's easier, because rules are stricter.
So it's easier to understand how to... well.
It may be a little less sincere too.
I don't know, but it allows people to situate themselves... That's Japan.
Human relationships are fairly hierarchic here.
So...
Well, that's what the rules allow.
Everyone in their place, everyone in their position,
"I give you my card, you give me yours, I know who you are,
how I can talk to you,
according to your status"... that's it.
Back home it's a little more complicated than that after all.
Beyond your level, is it not also the fact
that you have acquired multiculturalism for many years in Japan
which has given you a certain...
a certain vision of things and a way of teaching, a contact with people which
goes well when you teach internationally.
Is it part of your Aikido and your personality?
Maybe, maybe, maybe, but...
[Jordy: You were already like this before?]
Yes, I mean, I meet a lot of people I've known,
who knew me when I was much younger, I mean, I have friends near my place,
well, who live near my home now but...
who knew me when I was 12-13 years old, who are a bit older than me
and we did a lot of trainings together at the time,
then we lost sight of each other because I went to Japan but,
in their memories, I was a kid rather...
rather cheerful, rather pleasant, easy to talk to...
So that did not change much.
I think that...
inevitably with time it matures.
So, one way or the other, we can be...
I'm very approachable, there's nothing hidden,
my personal phone number is on my website...
Anyone can call me, anyone can send me an e-mail
and people do not hesitate, and I always answer.
But that does not mean that,
sometimes I put barriers.
Sometimes you answer someone once, the next day they ask me a question,
so you say: "Listen, I answered, now I cannot teach you Aikido over the phone,
we do not know each other."
That's it, you do it nicely, but at a certain point, you have to...
but in general...
I see the intention of the person, OK?
There are people who need this and I know it.
I know it and I know it makes them happy
and that it may be the only communication they will have for one day or one month, some of them.
So I do it because it doesn't cost me anything.
And for the person sometimes it means a lot because they need it and that's it.
Well... it's...
There are many people who...
who have an image...
who have the impression that you are distant because of your 8th dan status.
That's true too, but also because...
I've become... some people think I'm cold, some of them.
Those who don't know me, even very close students.
They don't dare to talk to me about certain things.
So maybe it's also... I don't protect myself.
But that's how it is...
I am approachable for everyone, but on the other hand...
I put no barrier between people and me, the barrier exists.
It is there, I do not need a barrier.
Someone wants to take a picture...
A picture, it doesn't bother me.
Someone's arm on my back doesn't bother me, it doesn't deprive me of anything,
it doesn't give me anything, it doesn't deprive me of anything.
You see what I mean?
Often when people say "No, you can't touch the Sensei"...
It's Ok, why not, I mean... I can stay like that.
Careful, I'm not going to lie down on the floor with someone, I mean, don't get too comfortable either.
But what I mean is: things have to be natural.
It's not because someone gives me a pat on the back
that he will take something away from me.
Well, sometimes I do not like it.
Well, I don't like it...
I'm not going to start a discussion about it either, it depends on how it's done.
"That's nice, I appreciate you a lot."
OK, I'm happy.
Now if it's insistant, then OK, enough.
But people don't do it.
When they do it, it's always with kindness,
It's never unwholesome.
It happened, but it's rare, it's very rare.
I had this impression...
the first times we met.
I went to "a seminar with Christian Tissier" for the first time,
but I admit that very quickly...
At the first contact we had, I quickly realized that...
humanly speaking...
it was consistent with what we saw on the mats.
OK very good.
It's not always the case so it's...
Maybe because people often want to protect themselves, so... yeah.
Today you are...
probably one of the biggest influences in international Aikido,
if we except the Japanese, among the foreigners, there's no doubt,
do you live this well, or is it sometimes difficult?
I don't think about it, I live it normally, so very, very normally.
Sincerely, I have no...
no, that's it...
That's the way it is, very good.
Seeing the evolution...
that sometimes is not even driven by you,
these things that happen by themselves around you.
I'm often surprised, yeah, surprised.
It happens sometimes, I go somewhere...
How come there are so many people? I mean...
Sometimes I go somewhere and I think...
We saw each other last week,
I'm in Paris, or I'm in...
he is from Finland or Sweden or...
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