VISIT THERE SINCE 2009. WE'VE GOT A FULL PANEL TO
DISCUSS THIS. WITH ME NBC CHIEF FOREIGN
CORRESPONDENT RICHARD ENGEL, BOB SCALES, THE ATLANTIC'S
WASHINGTON EDITOR AT LARGE STEVE CLEMENS, AND HUFFINGTON POST
GLOBAL EDITORIAL DIRECTOR HOWARD FINE MAN.
GREAT TO HAVE ALL OF YOU HERE. GENERAL, SECOND LARGEST BOMB IN
OUR ARSENAL, WALK US THROUGH. WHAT IS THIS THING AND HOW MUCH
DAMAGE CAN IT DO? >> THIS IS A MODERN VERSION OF
THE VIETNAM ERA DAISY CUTTER. IT IS 11 TONS OF EXPLOSIVE.
IT'S NOT DROPPED FROM A BOMBER. IT'S DROPPED FROM THE WEIRD GATE
OF A CARGO PLANE. A PARA CHUTE PULLS IT OUT, IT
SEPARATES FROM THE PARACHUTE, AND IT'S GUIDED TO THE TARGET BY
GPS. >> SO IT'S ACCURATE.
>> IT'S PRECISION ACCURATE. BUT THE PURPOSE OF THIS IS NOT
FRAGMENTATION, NOT SHRAPNEL. IT'S TO BUILDUP AN OVERPRESSURE
OR BLAST, IF YOU WILL. PURPOSE OF IT IS TO COLLAPSE
BUILDINGS, TEAR UP RAIL JUNCTIONS, COLLAPSE TUNNELS
THROUGH THE BLAST. IT DOESN'T KILL THROUGH
SHRAPNEL. SO, IT MAKES IT UNIQUE IN THE
ARSENAL. AND THE NATION, WE'VE GOT 13 OF
THESE LEFT. THEY'VE BEEN SITTING IN FLORIDA
FOR, WHAT, 15, 16 YEARS. >> WHY USE IT NOW?
>> WELL, FIRST OF ALL, THIS WAS A SPECIAL OPERATIONS COMMAND
REQUEST. IT'S THEIR MISSION.
THIS MISSION HAS BEEN IN THE WORKS FOR ABOUT THREE MONTHS.
AND WHAT THEY WANTED TO DO WAS TO TEST IT IN THE NARROW
CONFINES OF THOSE AFGHAN VALLEYS TO SEE IF THE, IF THE BOMB
LANDING IN THE MIDDLE OF THAT CAN USE THOSE CONFINING WALLS TO
BUILDUP OVERPRESSURE AND CAUSE DAMAGE TO TUNNELS, MOSTLY
TUNNELS IN THE AREA. THEY WANT TO SEE WHAT EFFECT
THAT WOULD HAVE ON TUNNELS. SO PERHAPS IN THE FUTURE THEY
CAN USE IT AGAIN AGAINST MORE LUCRATIVE TARGETS.
>> IT'S BEEN IN THE WORKS, THEN, BUT STEVE, EVEN THOUGH THE
PRESIDENT HAS SAID FROM THE VERY TIME HE STARTED RUNNING FOR
PRESIDENT THAT ISIS WAS GOING TO BE IN HIS SIGHTS, WHY THIS, WHY
NOW? >> WELL, I THINK THAT HE HAS
DONE WHAT HE SAID, WHICH HE'S GIVEN THE MILITARY AUTHORIZATION
TO MOVE ALMOST WITHOUT HIM KNOWING WHAT THEY'RE DOING.
THAT'S WHAT IT SOUNDS LIKE TO ME.
AND I THINK RIGHT NOW ISIS -- I MEAN, IT IS ODD BECAUSE THOSE OF
US WHO HAVE BEEN LOOKING AT THE DIRECTION OF ISIS HAVE BEEN
LOOKING AT SYRIA AND IRAQ. AND, SO, THE FACT THAT YOU'VE
GOT ISIS ACTIVE -- >> WHEN HE SAID I'M GOING TO
BOMB THE -- I'M NOT GOING TO SAY THE WORD -- OUT OF THEM, HE WAS
TALKING ABOUT SYRIA AND IRAQ AND THE OIL FIELDS.
>> RIGHT. WHAT REALLY IMPRESSED ME,
THOUGH, ABOUT WHAT THE GENERAL JUST SHARED IN TERMS OF HIS
KNOWLEDGE OF WHAT THIS DID, IT ALMOST REMINDS ME OF THE OLD
WORLD WAR II STRATEGIST, FAMOUS STRATEGIST PAUL NITZA, WHO BUILT
HIS REPRESENTATION OF SOMEBODY WHO STUDIED BOMB DAMAGE DURING
WORLD WAR II. IT ALMOST SOUNDS LIKE A MEETING
OF A STRATEGIC NEED THAT WAS DECIDED IN THE FIELD TO TRY AND
DO SOMETHING HERE. WHAT COULD YOU DO WITH THIS BOMB
THEY'VE NEVER USED BEFORE? SOUNDS LIKE A BIT OF
EXPERIMENTATION AS WELL AS WHAT IS THE NEED OF ACTUALLY TRYING
TO DISRUPT ISIS? THAT RAISES THE QUESTIONS OF
WHAT DO THEY THINK THEY CAN DO NEXT WITH THIS BOMB AND WHERE
WOULD THEY DROP IT. >> YEAH, WE'LL GET TO THAT.
BUT RICHARD, I WANT TO GO TO YOU.
TELL US A LITTLE BIT MORE ABOUT THE REGION WHERE THIS WAS, WHO
MIGHT HAVE BEEN THERE, AND WHAT YOU CAN TELL US ABOUT THE
STRATEGY OF GOING THERE. AEL SO, JUST TO PICKUP ON THE
THEME THAT WE WERE JUST DISCUSSING ABOUT
EXPERIMENTATION, THEY'RE NOT THAT MANY PLACES WHERE YOU CAN
DROP A BOMB LIKE THIS. AS THE GENERAL MENTIONED, IT IS
DROPPED FROM A CARGO PLANE, THE REAR OF THE CARGO PLANE OPENS, A
PARACHUTE PULLS THE THING OUT. CARGO PLANES FLY RELATIVELY LOW,
THEY FLY SLOWLY. SO, YOU CAN'T GO INTO AN AREA
LIKE SYRIA OR IRAN WITH A CARGO PLANE.
NOWHERE WHERE THEY HAVE HEAVY AIR DEFENSES.
SO, IN REMOTE AFGHANISTAN WHERE THERE ARE NOT MANY PEOPLE,
PARTICULARLY IN THIS AREA NANGAHAR PROVINCE --
>> THAT'S NEAR THE PAKISTAN PROVINCE, IS THAT RIGHT?
>> IT IS. IT'S A VERY, VERY REMOTE PART OF
AFGHANISTAN ALONG THE PAKISTAN I BORDER.
IT IS CONSIDERED ONE OF THE BIG STRONG HOLDS OF ISIS.
AND IF YOU WERE TO HIT A TUNNEL COMPLEX, WHICH IS WHAT THE
MILITARY SAID IT HIT, A TUNNEL COMPLEX IT CLAIMS WAS BEING USED
BY ISIS, THERE ARE NOT THAT MANY PEOPLE IN THE AREA.
ONE WOULD PRESUME THERE ARE NOT MANY PEOPLE IN A TUNNEL COMPLEX
IN NANGAHAR PROVINCE. AND THEY'RE NOT SOPHISTICATED
AIR DEFENSES SO IT'S AN OPPORTUNITY TO DROP THIS BOMB ON
AN ENEMY THAT IS DECLARED AND CLEAR AND UNDERSTOOD WITHOUT THE
RISK OF TOO MANY CIVILIAN CASUALTIES.
AND WITHOUT THE RISK OF BEI BEI SHOT DOWN BY SOPHISTICATED AIR
DEFENSES. THE QUESTION IS, AND THE GENERAL
HAD A VERY SORT OF SLIPPERY PHASE THERE, HE SAID PERHAPS
THEY'RE TESTING IT FOR MORE LUCRATIVE TARGETS.
SO DOES THAT MEAN IRAN, DOES THAT MEAN NORTH KOREA?
I DON'T KNOW WHAT THOSE LUCRATIVE TARGETS MIGHT BE.
IF YOU LOOK AT THE CURRENT CLIMATE, NORTH KOREA WOULD COME
TO MIND. >> LET'S TALK ABOUT THIS TARGET
AND WHAT EFFECT THIS MIGHT HAVE IN THE FIGHT AGAINST ISIS,
RICHARD. >> WELL, ISIS HAS FRANKLY THE
WAR IN AFGHANISTAN IS NOT GOING TERRIBLY WELL.
THERE ARE JUST UNDER 10,000 U.S. TROOPS THERE.
BUT THE AFGHAN GOVERNMENT REMAINS QUITE WEAK AND THERE ARE
MANY POCKETS OF THE COUNTRY WHERE THERE IS STILL GREAT ISIS
INFLUENCE. AL QAEDA INFLUENCE, TALIBAN
INFLUENCE, AND THOSE GROUPS CAN EFFECTIVELY CARRY OUT HIT AND
RUN STYLE ATTACKS WHENEVER THEY WANT TO IN KABUL.
IF YOU REMEMBER A MONTH AGO, ISIS STAGED AN ELABORATE DRAWN
OUT ATTACK ON A HOSPITAL RIGHT IN THE CENTER OF KABUL.
AFGHAN SPECIAL FORCES HAD TO LAND ON THE ROOF AND TRY AND
BREAK INTO THE BUILDING. AND THERE WERE PATIENTS AND
MEDICAL STAFF WHO WERE CLINGING TO THE SIDES OF THE BUILDING
WHILE ISIS WAS GOING FROM ROOM TO ROOM KILLING PEOPLE.
THAT'S HAPPENING IN THE CAPITAL. SO, THE IDEA WOULD BE TO USE AN
ENORMOUS BOMB LIKE THIS TO ELIMINATE A CONCENTRATION OR
TUNNEL COMPLEX OF ISIS FIGHTERS, BUT ALSO TO TRY AND SEND A
PSYCHOLOGICAL MESSAGE. IT IS A FRIGHTENING WEAPON.
IT MAKES A LOT OF NOISE. IT ACTUALLY LITERALLY WILL MAKE
THE GROUND SHAKE. SO, YOU WOULD WANT TO TERRIFY
YOUR ENEMY, SHOCK AND AWE THE ENEMY, AND USE IT IN A PLACE
THAT IS PERMISSIBLE. >> SO A MESSAGE TO THE ENEMY,
BUT I WONDER IF IT'S A MESSAGE TO THE PRESIDENT'S BASE DOING
WHAT HE SAID HE WAS GOING TO DO. HE CALLED IT TODAY A VERY
SUCCESSFUL MISSION. LET ME JUST PLAY THAT.
>> IF YOU LOOK AT WHAT HAPPENS' HAPPENED OVER THE LAST EIGHT
WEEKS AND COMPARE THAT TO REALLY TO WHAT'S HAPPENED OVER THE LAST
EIGHT YEARS, YOU'LL SEE THERE IS A TREMENDOUS DIFFERENCE,
TREMENDOUS DIFFERENCE. SO, WE HAVE INCREDIBLE LEADERS
IN THE MILITARY. WE HAVE INCREDIBLE MILITARY.
AND WE ARE VERY PROUD OF THEM. AND THIS WAS ANOTHER VERY, VERY
SUCCESSFUL MISSION. >> SO, ONE PART OF THIS IS THE
MILITARY PART OF IT. THE OTHER PART IS THE POLITICAL
PARTS OF IT. HOW DO YOU READ THAT PART OF IT,
HOWARD? >> WELL, THERE ARE TWO OR THREE
PARTS TO THE POLITICAL ANSWER. ONE OF THEM IS TYPICAL TRUMP
THINK, WHICH IS I'M GOING TO DISTINGUISH MYSELF FROM BARACK
OBAMA IN ANY WAY I POSSIBLY CAN. >> SO, SYRIA, NOW AFGHANISTAN.
>> YES. AND ALSO BARACK OBAMA HAD LITTLE
DRONES. I'VE GOT A 21,000-POUND BOMB,
OKAY. >> NOBODY HAS EVER USED IT.
>> NOBODY HAS EVER USED BEFORE. BARACK OBAMA DIDN'T HAVE THE
GUTS TO USE, BUT I HAVE THE GUTS TO USE.
EVEN THOUGH I DON'T THINK HE KNEW ABOUT IT IN ADVANCE,
ACTUALLY. OKAY.
THAT'S NUMBER ONE. NUMBER TWO, THERE IS THE
INTERPLAY WITHIN THE ADMINISTRATION WHICH IS THE
PENTAGON IS SHOWING PRESIDENT TRUMP THEIR WARES.
DON'T FORGET WE HAD THE FIGHT AGAINST STEVE BANNON.
THAT'S OVER. H.R. McMASTER, REX TILLERSON
PRETTY MUCH CORNERED THE ISOLATIONIST, SO-CALLED,
ANTIGLOBALIST STEVE BANNON. PUT HIM IN A CORNER.
AND THIS IS A DEMONSTRATION WHAT THEY COULD DO.
NUMBER THREE, THIS IS DONALD TRUMP'S KIND OF WAR ACTION.
IT'S DROPPING A BIG BOMB. IT'S NOT PUTTING BOOTS ON THE
GROUND. IT'S SHOWING STRENGTH WITHOUT
COMMITTING TROOPS. AND IT'S MESSAGE SENDING.
SO, IT'S EXACTLY WHAT HE WANTS TO DO AND IT'S ISIL.
THIS IS A BRANCH OF ISIL OUT THERE IN AFGHANISTAN, ISIL-K.
AND HE'S GONE AFTER WHO HE SAID I WAS GOING TO GO AFTER WHEN HE
RAN FOR OFFICE. SO, AND ALSO THIS SHOWS THE
FURTHER SHIFT OF DONALD TRUMP FROM DOMESTIC ISSUES TO GLOBAL
ISSUES. EVERY PRESIDENT EVENTUALLY
DECIDES THEY'VE HAD ENOUGH WITH CONGRESS, ENOUGH WITH THE
BUREAUCRACY, ENOUGH WITH THE PRESS.
I'M GOING TO GET INTO GLOBAL AFFAIRS.
DONALD TRUMP HAS RUSHED IN TO GLOBAL CONSCIOUSNESS WITHIN A
FEW WEEKS OF THE BEGINNING OF HIS PRESIDENCY.
>> ALSO SOMETHING INTERESTING THAT McMASTER IS GOING, A
SMALLER MESSAGE MAYBE, BUT WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THAT, STEVE?
>> I THINK McMASTER IS TRYING TO FIGURE OUT -- THEY'VE ADVOCATED
PUTTING MORE TROOPS BACK INTO AFGHANISTAN AND TRYING TO SORT
OF LOOK AT WHAT THEY CAN DO TO RETURN IT.
OUR LEVELS OF TROOPS RIGHT NOW ARE THERE TO MAKE SURE KABUL
DOESN'T FAUM. YOU HAVE A RISE OF WAR LORDS IN
AFGHANISTAN AND A RISE OF TALIBAN.
VIRTUALLY EVERYWHERE ELSE WE ARE.
INTERESTING ABOUT ATTACKING ISIL AND AFGHANISTAN, IT IS PROBABLY
THE LEAST SIGNIFICANT PORTION OF THE SO-CALLED ENEMY OR LIST OF
CONCERNS THERE. IT WILL HAVE NO IMPACT ON THE
STRATEGIC TIP OR BALANCE. IT LOOKS LIKE IT BECAUSE IT'S
BIG THEATRICAL, IT'S SCARY. THIS WAS NOT TAKING OUT THE
HAKANI NETWORK. IT WAS NOT TAKING OUT VARIOUS
PIECES OF THE AL QAEDA AFFILIATED TALIBAN NETWORK.
I THINK THAT HAS TO BE THOUGHT ABOUT, THAT, YOU KNOW, IT'S
PROBABLY CRUDE TO CALL IT THIS, BUT BOTH IN SYRIA IN THE KIND OF
STRIKE WE HAD ON THE AIR BASE AND WITH THIS BIG BOMB THAT WAS
IN A REMOTE AREA, THEY'RE PRETTY POLITE STRIKES THAT HAVE LOW
RISK AND THAT DON'T NECESSARILY CREATE LOTS OF BLOW BACK FOR THE
UNITED STATES. >> TO BE CYNICAL ABOUT IT
POLITICALLY, THEY CHANGED THE SUBJECT BIG TIME.
OKAY, WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT THE HEALTH CARE BILL, WE'RE NOT
TALKING ABOUT THE WALL. WE'RE TALKING ABOUT DONALD TRUMP
AS A GLOBAL ACTOR. >> AND SO IN OUR LAST 30
SECONDS, WHERE MIGHT THERE BE USED NEXT?
>> I DON'T KNOW. I THINK IT HAS TO BE A PROOF OF
PRINCIPLE. I DON'T THINK THE PRESIDENT EVEN
AUTHORIZED THIS. I THINK IT CAME FROM THE
GENERAL. I KNOW THIS MISSION AS I SAID
EARLIER HAS BEEN IN THE WORKS FOR SEVERAL MONTHS.
THIS IS PART OF A EXPLORATION, IF YOU WILL, OF HOW THEY COULD
USE THIS WEAPON. PERHAPS IN OTHER PLACES.
>> NORTH KOREA HAS A LOT OF TUNNELS.
>> YEAH, BUT THIS BOMB IS INAPPROPRIATE FOR NORTH KOREA.
IT'S A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT MISSION, COMPLETELY DIFFERENT
SET OF C
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