Welcome to Speaking of Psychology, a podcast from the American Psychological Association.
I'm your host, Kaitlin Luna.
I'm joined by two guests -- we have Dr. Lynn Bufka, associate executive director for research
and policy at APA and an APA fellow and we have Dr. Jeanne Safer, an APA fellow who has
been in private practice for over 40 years.
She's also the host of the podcast "I love You, But I Hate Your Politics."
Our discussion is on managing stress at holiday gatherings during these divisive times.
Welcome Dr. Bufka and Dr. Safer.
Glad to be here.
Thanks for having us.
So, at this point we've made it past Thanksgiving and Hanukkah and now Christmas and New Years
are upon us and for many, work holiday parties.
So, there's no doubt in my mind that people out there have experienced at least one uncomfortable
conversation with a loved one or a friend.
So, we're looking for advice today on how to navigate these very tricky topics with
people we care about.
So, I'll start with you Dr. Safer.
What advice do you have?
Well, the first thing is that everybody's nervous.
It's not just you.
That's why every magazine, every Internet thing has 5,000 articles on other things to
talk at the holidays except politics.
There was this thing in the New York Times about this, there was something on Huffington.
Isn't it sad that we can't think of anything to talk about other than politics these days?
I find that very distressing and one of the things that I recommend to people is that
you can change the subject.
I give you permission.
Everybody will be happy if you do.
Don't rise to the bait because some people can't get off their hobbyhorse.
But, you don't have to be on there with them.
And Lynn, what advice do you have?
I think that's absolutely right, Jeanne.
You don't have to talk about politics.
People love to talk about themselves.
If you're talking to somebody who's relatively new to you, try to what they're interested
in.
If you share an interest with a family member or have a connection to an older relative,
talk about what you have in common and get some good feelings going about what you share
before you launch into anything that might be more difficult.
I think that's excellent advice and but, I think that you don't even have to think about
launching into something more difficult.
You have the other 360 plus days to talk about it and these conversations never are good.
They never go anywhere unless you really know what you're doing, and you have a plan because
otherwise it always gets into terrible territory, I think.
I really recommend we not do it at not at a gathering.
Absolutely, because most people, if you have a very strong difference of opinion on, you're
not changing their mind at a holiday gathering.
You're not changing their mind at all and that's, that's one of the points of my podcast
and of my upcoming book with the same name.
Don't go into a conversation thinking you're going to change somebody's mind, because first
of all, minds are very difficult to change and you're not going to accomplish it.
If they do what it's because they want to change their mind.
So, once you get out of the idea of trying to change somebody's mind, it opens your horizons
to have a conversation.
And Lynn, you're on APA's Stress in America team and for our November podcast about the
2018 Stress in America report, we talked about how more than two-thirds of American adults
reported feeling significant stress about the fate of our nation -- the state of our
country, right now.
So, how does that stress spill into conversations at holiday parties and around the dinner table?
Well, I think Jeanne is absolutely right.
I think the challenge is to not bring it into the room.
You know, you recognize you're unlikely to change minds, to shift perspectives if you
have differences opinions, so you may decide that you have a common point of view or shared
concerns with some of the people you're gathering with, you may think you want to have a conversation
with them, but you really want to read the room.
Some people may just say, I don't want to deal with us today.
This is about the holidays.
It's about being with people I love.
It's about giving thanks.
It's about sharing.
So, be respectful of that.
Don't have that conversation and try to figure out other ways to contain what is causing
a lot of distress for you.
Take it outside on a walk if you absolutely need to be saying something to somebody.
But, you don't need to fill the whole room with it.
There are also ways that you can learn to have a political discussion, but I think this
is the advanced course, frankly.
And not for a one-night stand at a holiday party.
I was at a meeting this morning that was almost entirely conservative Republicans because
my husband is one and he was giving a talk and so, somebody asked me to somebody I knew
a little bit said, "What did you think of the Kavanaugh hearing?"
Now, this was a minefield, right?
I wasn't going to say "Well, I thought it was outrageous."
So, he said "You know I really didn't believe her."
Now, I didn't get into it.
I didn't say, "Well, I did."
You know, and we moved away.
I didn't feel like I was going to accomplish anything by talking to this man about this.
Although it was in a respectful way, we were really on totally different sides and we were
going to stay there.
And I think this is a very hard thing for people to accept because when you love somebody
or when you like somebody, you really want them to agree with you and politics is now
in the position that religion used to be in.
You know, as the kind of basic aspect of our identity.
And it's, it's really, I think it's very unfortunate.
You know, having been married to somebody for 38 years who doesn't agree with me about
anything political -- I think that's pretty accurate, not one thing.
I've learned that there are other ways that you can have conversations for decades that
are very interesting and meaningful.
Can you elaborate on that a little bit more because you're a liberal, your husband's a
conservative and you were recently interviewed about this for the podcast Committed, which
is about relationships.
So, can you tell us how you made a relationship work with such differing viewpoints and how
you navigate these, these events when you go to an event when you're hearing people
who have very different opinions from you.
How do you go about that without creating enemies and leaving with bad feelings?
Well, first of all it's good if you have 40 years of experience.
I'm a lot better at it now and the way I'm better at it now is I've learned a long time
ago how to do it and I practice what I preach.
And one of the things -- I know this is unpopular, but avoidance is a very good thing.
Everybody, my husband is not just a conservative, he's senior editor of National Review, which
is the conservative, you know, it's the intellectual conservative magazine.
One thing I don't do, and I haven't for years is I don't read his editorials because I know
what they say and it's also, I think, interesting Kaitlin that we met in a group that sings
Renaissance music.
So, we have many, many -- and in fact, on the last episode of my podcast, when I interview
my husband, so you can actually hear us talk, we end up singing a madrigal.
So, I think that's a kind of nice metaphor for what you do instead and in political - if
things come up, now there's one thing that's interesting.
The Trump victory has been -- I don't think so hot for the nation, but it's been great
for my marriage because my husband doesn't -- is not a Trump supporter.
And this is the first time and all the time I've known him that we could talk about hating
somebody or disliking somebody is in office without fighting about it.
It's not like abortion.
I mean forget abortion.
That's impossible.
Gun control isn't so easy.
But you know, it's a job and you have to be an adult and you have to start out -- I think
this is the most important thing, with goodwill.
You have to assume that someone else, because you can't, it's not a one-night stand, you
know, like at a holiday party, this is going to be your life, that the other person has
legitimate reasons for disagreeing with you, even if you hold passionately the positions
that you hold.
And once you do that, it shifts your emphasis.
So, a lot of it is about finding common ground?
Yes, and not expecting that common ground is going to include opinions.
One of the things that I've written a lot about is what is a real core value and many
people these days think that it's politics.
People won't date somebody who has different politics.
Parents don't care if you're a different religion or race as long as you have the same politics.
It's really become -- there's some disturbing statistics.
When I got married in 1980, 20 percent of couples were mixed, like they always used
to be, you know.
Now it's nine percent and going down.
People never have any experience of the other side, so they don't learn that they don't
have horns and tails.
Yeah right, and that doesn't help when you're trying to find common ground you mean, in
your own bubble I mean you hear all of the time...
And that's where we stay.
Yeah, exactly.
I mean, obviously, it's very easy with new television news tailored to your viewpoints,
you know, the news you get.
Yeah, the Internet's all tailored to your likes and everything like that, social media,
so it becomes becoming even more challenging, I probably would say.
I mean unless you're picking up a newspaper and reading it, you know you're probably almost
most likely bombarded with these very polarizing...
Absolutely and you kind of assume that, that your position is the only true one.
Now, I believe that about a lot of things.
But also, I've been embedded enough in the right-wing, you know socially in certain ways,
that I also know that people could disagree passionately with me and have a legitimacy
to why they feel the way they feel.
Not that I agree with it.
You know, as psychologists we also, we often know patients who disagree with us about all
kinds of things and we don't sit they would say "You know, you should have my opinion
instead of yours."
So, it's really, if we take a stance, a psychological stance, I think it's very helpful.
And your point is one that we're really missing in today's discourse, where a lot of times
people don't want to even consider that an alternative point of view might be coming
from a place that is grounded in some values or isn't grounded in the position of, I think
this would move us forward in a positive way.
We tend to just dismiss other viewpoints as all wrong and evil, bad, whatever, as opposed
to being willing to understand how perhaps a shared value might exist under opposing
views, but the idea of how to get forward differs.
But, we can't even have those discussions to understand that at this point.
Unless you have something of an open mind, you can't do it.
I interviewed someone a few weeks ago for my podcast.
She's a liberal, but she's also a Catholic and she's married to a non-liberal Catholic.
And she's pro-life.
A pro-life liberal, can you imagine this?
And I heard this, and I thought, and she said the reason that I'm pro-life is that I believe
in innocent -- that you have to protect innocents.
Now, that's not my position, but can we say that that's an illegitimate thing to think?
And I felt myself moving away from her when she said that because I disagree so strongly,
but then I thought this woman has thought about that and she's come to this from a decent
place.
Right, yeah, exactly.
I think that sometimes what's missing is just realizing is vilifying the other person, vilifying
the other people.
Yes, and that's going way up.
You know, the Democrats think that, through that, I don't know, some horrible statistic
of how many Democrats think that the Republicans are responsible for the end of civilization
and vice versa.
This gets us nowhere.
There are people we agree with that we can't stand in many, many ways and have terrible
values and people we disagree with who would go to the mat for us.
And one of the things that my criterion that I came up with through a lot of thought is
what my husband and I call the chemotherapy test, which is when you're lying, which just
happened to both of us -- when you're lying in a bed getting chemotherapy from cancer,
you don't ask the party registration of the person standing by your side getting you through
it.
That's what counts from me and that's an extreme example, but the people who show up, the people
who care for you, these are the values that are eternal, in my opinion, in human relationships.
So, what are some ways we can turn these conversations, potentially, you know, rife with landmines
into something to create deeper connections -- like you mentioned, like you're, you know,
your family comes over yes you might have different viewpoints about a variety of things,
but clearly there's caring and love there, with your friends, too.
So, there's something that holds you together.
So, how do we use this as an opportunity to correctly create deeper bonds of people we
care about?
Well, first of all, I think there are some real behavioral things we can do and not do
in a conversation.
First of all, don't drink.
The first thing because as soon as you drink you raise your voice and that's also something
that you shouldn't do because once you drink and raise your voice everybody thinks you're
shouting and that's the end of rational conversation.
Never start a conversation by saying "How can you possibly think such as such?"
You've lost the person already.
You can say something like "Tell me you're thinking on this."
If you could do it right, I don't think it's easy to do that, you know, tell me your thinking
on this.
I also believe that we should always, if you have a mixed a relationship with somebody
who is the other side, that they believe in the other side and somebody attacks them,
you should defend your partner.
Now, I'll give you an example of the most difficult situation I ever had -- this was
years ago, and my husband and I were at a brunch that was all psychoanalysts and he's
been in this world before.
So, somebody came up to him and said "Well, how does it feel to be a crypto Nazi?"
And I said, he laughed it off, but I said "Excuse me, please don't use that word.
That's a serious accusation and it's not right."
And I thought that was essential to do.
Hmm hmm, absolutely.
So, you know, there are things you allow.
There are things you don't allow.
Listen more than you talk.
You'll learn interesting things about the other side if you open your mind.
You don't have to agree with them.
You're not going to change their minds.
If you try to figure out what their mind is, you'll have a better time.
And sometimes you'll find that you both share a similar value.
You might care deeply about what impacts children, but your perspective on how we get there or
what might be most important is very different.
That's true.
And sometimes connecting over that shared place of, I would do anything for kids to
make the world better, may help you open up to hearing, they think similarly, but how
they think what's most important to be done is so different.
As long as if they don't say, "Well, what I really think is that everybody should have
a gun," well then, you're stuck.
And sometimes if you could have a sense of humor, if you can maintain it, which is not
easy, and also this is something I really recommend -- if you're getting into tricky
ground, say timeout, you know.
I respect your opinion, but I don't think we're going to fix this issue here and now.
Tell me about your family or something.
Offer another topic.
You don't have to let the other person take the lead into deep water.
One of the things I find really challenging for myself, is like, if someone says something
offensive to me is to not, my immediate response, I'm getting better about is to clam up and
not want to say it, you know, stand up first for what I believe in.
But Lynn, can you speak to how you stand up for your beliefs while remaining calm and
not starting a fight?
I think it's a really good question.
I think lots of people struggle with that and part of it, you want to figure out, sort
of this something really, like the example that Jeanne just gave about somebody saying
something about her husband.
That's something you have to stand up for.
That's just not right, to call somebody such a violent term and so inappropriate and you
sort of need to figure out, am I offended because I disagree with your belief or are
you saying something that's really racist or homophobic or something and attacking people?
Like you know, if you're offended because you don't like a point of view, that's different
from I'm offended because you just said something really, like implied that all poor people
are stupid, which is ridiculous, or that women really shouldn't be working, they should all
be at home in the kitchen.
You know, those kinds of things where...
Or you never believe somebody who says that they were raped.
Right, exactly.
So, we are sort of saying things that clearly are classifying whole groups of individuals
or any individual in a way that's just inaccurate and counter to human decency and values.
That's different from being offended by somebody saying they're an ardent gun owner rights
person, who might be there for different reasons.
You may not like that, but I think it's really important to separate out attacks on people
and groups of people from viewpoints around issues.
Yes, and it's a very tricky border, isn't it, because we feel passionately about the
things that we believe in and the other side feels passionately, the decent ones, feel
passionately about their point of view.
And you can, you know, one of the things that I think it's important to give yourself permission
to do is to say, we know, I understand that you feel strongly about this and for reasons
that make sense to you, but they don't make sense to me.
The way you say things counts an awful lot.
100 percent.
So, say despite your best efforts, you still end up having a blow-up with someone you care
about -- a family member, a friend.
So, how do you make amends and move on from that situation after you might have had a
big disagreement?
I have a shocking suggestion: apologize.
Do not unfriend them.
God, that is really insane.
Two brothers unfriended each other over differences in Kavanagh and one woman broke her engagement
over differences at Kavanagh -- who wrote to me about that.
But anyway, but you could say things like "I'm sorry, I spoke out of turn."
I had a wonderful example of this and someone I interviewed, her family is very left-wing,
and she really loved them all except her uncle who was very right-wing and very evangelical
and really, totally disagreed with everybody else in the family.
But when her father died, guess who was the only one who showed up and helped her?
The guy that she didn't agree with.
And she said that taught her a lot about what mattered.
She didn't agree with anything he said anymore, but she wrote him a note, an actual note on
paper, which I also recommend saying I'm sorry.
I was offensive.
I really didn't appreciate your excellent character and all the help you gave me.
That was the right thing to do.
And I think your point about apologizing is so important.
You don't need to apologize for having a different point of view, but you apologized for shouting
about it or being disrespectful in your conversation or otherwise moving a relationship downhill.
That's what you apologize about.
You don't have to take back your viewpoints and personal values and people confuse that.
Yes, that's exactly what I was thinking.
She could say I was obnoxious on Facebook to you.
That doesn't mean that she disagrees, that she doesn't hold what she holds, but the way
you say something really matters.
That's why you don't shout.
Oh, another thing that I recommend is to not quote outside experts.
When you're having a conversation with somebody don't say well, "I read in such-and-such a
place that's such-and-such" and by all means never give somebody an article or send them
a link that they didn't ask for.
That's the quickest way to offend.
And so, one of the things I read it when I was looking at researching this topic I found
a Wall Street Journal article that talked about the importance of having an ally at
a holiday function.
Say you know you're with your family, you don't have a significant other.
Maybe bring a friend with you or having someone you can call and in times of need to de-stress.
So, can you talk a little about what the importance of that, having someone who has your back
at these functions?
Well, I think that was -- when you think about just how stressed people can be about some
of these issues, that was where I was headed earlier, is to take that person aside if you
just need to decompress a little bit and say, "Wow the political talk is really getting
to me.
I'm not having any luck changing conversations.
Can we just go over here and have a little conversation that we can share some points
of view or whatever you need in the moment" That can be very helpful to just get a little
reality check and find out am I misreading things?
How might I handle things a little bit differently?
That can be helpful in a situation where you're not having success and having everyone talk
about the new puppy or the latest movie they've seen or whatever new topics you're trying
to get everyone doing.
That could be very helpful in the moment and it can also be helpful afterwards to get a
reality check and asked if you have a trusted ally to say "You know, did I cross the line,
too?
How could I have done this differently or what could I have said that perhaps might
not have taken things down a negative path" and maybe what you'll hear is you might not
have been able to say anything, but you could have shut up.
You could have listened more.
You could have had a different conversation topic and so it can be helpful to have that
reality check from somebody who knows you and is comfortable giving you that kind of
feedback.
Well, that's a good friend to have, somebody who could say you know you really should have
shut up.
I'm kind of a little concerned about using a friend as a service animal, if you know
what I mean?
I don't know if I'd like to be taken to a party for that, for that function, but we
should be able hopefully, eventually, to do this for ourselves.
You know what I mean?
That if you walk into a party -- I walk into parties that are all conservatives all the
time and I've tried to find something else to think about and if I have to take a break
and walk out of the room, I walk out of the room.
Yeah, breaks are good, too.
Yeah, breaks are good, as long as you don't drink.
Yeah, I'm thinking about younger people who probably haven't had as much experience with
that kind of world.
You know and might need to have the support of somebody saying, you know, it's okay to
do that.
It's okay to take a break, to walk out.
I think a lot of people find that awkward and uncomfortable and don't know really how
to do that.
So, having something you can kind of check in with who can help you gauge the tone of
the room is a reasonable thing.
And it could be your cousin who's your age who has a different point of view, but is
like "Wow, I can't believe the uncles are going crazy over this stuff."
Yes, that can be very helpful.
It's, it's a reality check for you.
I'm just not sure I would want to invite somebody to a party for that purpose.
It's not exactly, it's not exactly a celebration, is it?
Although that would be an awfully good friend who would do it.
This is in that realm of self-care.
So, you know I've often heard that, you know, when stress goes up your self-care should
go up too but that's obviously easier said than done.
So, how do we find time for self-care in this busy time in general?
I mean, a lot of people probably have engagements to get to, you know, there's gift buying,
there's just a lot of stress around this time of year.
Sometimes good stress and just going to a lot of functions, but like how do we take
time for ourselves?
You know, one thing about that question -- I was thinking about that, about self-care and
I thought that one of the best ways to have self-care is self-assertion, that is to take
charge of how you're going to be in the situation when you're at a party or some kind of function
where there are problems and to feel that you can do what you need to do for yourself.
You don't have to listen to something that's really offensive.
You don't, you shouldn't say, "Well, the hell with you," but there are ways to deflect it,
ways to get out of it.
In the moment and I think that really takes down our stress level a lot if we know that
we're going to know how to function.
We're going to know how to take care of ourselves by saying, you know, if somebody offends you
saying, "Please don't let's not talk about that" or "I have a very different point of
view, but this isn't the time or place"or something like that.
It feels good.
Yes, yeah and I think in general, you know, when we think about the holidays people get
so wrapped up in ideas about perfection and I have to have the kind of Christmas my mom
had, or I want to make as Hanukkah presents.
I think there's sort of two things to keep in mind.
One is celebrate the holidays in a way that's consistent with your values -- not what you
think everyone else thinks you should be doing, but what feels right to you and make your
choices around that and while you're doing that hopefully you can develop some habits
that allow you to do the things that are good self-care for you -- whether it's good eating,
regular sleep, exercise, madrigal singing, whatever it is that brings you some happiness
and joy and then I think the other thing that's so important, particularly at the holidays
is there's this magic word called "no."
You don't have to do everything.
You don't have to accept every invitation.
You don't have to volunteer for every event.
So, you can really take the time to decide what's right for you and what values matter
for your world and your life and your family or group of friends or whatever and that will
help to protect the space you have for your own self-care and your own well-being.
And it's not selfish to do that.
It's very important to realize that when you take care of yourself, this is not doing something
or taking something away from somebody else -- that self-care in many ways has to come
first and it's not disrespectful to others.
Is this one of those times where it is okay to say no to something?
Like if you know that there's a particularly tense gathering coming in the future, is it
okay to say I can't make it this time?
Absolutely.
Absolutely or leave early or we come late or whatever you need to do.
Yeah, no one says you have to go to every party you're invited to.
Yes, I think we should give permission right now that whatever holidays are coming up you
don't have to do something that you really dread.
This is not a time -- there's certain things we have to do that we dread but going to a
holiday party shouldn't be one of them.
Right, absolutely.
And so, obviously this conversation isn't just about the holidays.
These stresses about all these conversations and whatever's coming in the future will be
happening after once the holidays are over so, for both of you want to know how do we
keep civility alive as we move forward into the new year?
Well, I think what we're doing, what we're talking about here, applies to every interaction
that we have.
Not simply a holiday party.
The holidays are just a kind of moment of intense concentrated difficulty, but I think,
I mean wouldn't you agree that this is how we should conduct ourselves in general?
Oh, absolutely.
I think we have to start from the basis of this other person is a valuable human being.
They deserve my respect.
I need to listen to this person in the way that I would expect them to listen to me and
if you can start in that place, you're much more likely to have a civil relationship with
somebody.
Absolutely and this is something that you could do for yourself.
It's very easy to feel like a victim when you're in a situation where everybody is talking
about something you don't want to talk about.
But, if you have a sense that you can say something or do something, it really feels
good.
You know, when I was thinking about this show, I remember at a time when I didn't do it and
I was at a gathering.
It was, I think it was after a graduation, the same kind of thing, you know.
And a number of the members of the family -- I wasn't a member of the family, started
fighting about I don't know, gay rights.
I don't remember what it was.
And they went on and on and nobody said anything and everybody else was sitting there frozen
and I felt that because I wasn't the member of the family that I shouldn't say anything.
I thought afterwards, I thought, "Why shouldn't I say something?"
Of course I should have said something, like please, this is uncomfortable for everyone
here.
Have that discussion privately.
And I would have felt better.
Yeah, there's a lot to learn from some of these situations, you know, perhaps, you know
this podcast airing -- what it does, yeah, we've gone through some of the holidays we
saw a few more and obviously as life goes on, there's plenty of opportunities to put
this into practice.
You know that there are people you are more likely to have difficult conversations with
and in my world it's not people about political conversations.
There's just some folks in my world who are difficult to be with and I often remind myself
of things like Jeanne had said of how can I sort of gently say you know we could have
this discussion elsewhere or is it who really want to present things?
There's a little child here.
Let's think about what they're hearing.
Things like that, that sort of gently point out maybe our behavior could be improved and
how can we do that in a way?
And I remind myself of those things prior to going so that I'm primed in case I need
to step up.
I think that's good advice even if the other person doesn't take it, just by taking it
yourself and that's the thing.
If you shift the way you deal with these things, it becomes less important to change the other
person or get the other person's attention or whatever because you have a certain dignity
and civility that you're projecting.
And I think that improves the atmosphere, in general.
So, if we're to summarize this for everyone as they go into the holiday gatherings and
functions to take care of yourself, don't overdo, don't overextend yourself at the holidays,
try to find common ground, try to avoid any discussions that could get too heated, but
also stand up, standing up for yourself, too if that situation does arise.
Any last-minute tips you want to you want to share?
Can we kind of just kind of summarize the discussion here?
I think that you should go in looking for as much joy as you can find and it's an unusual
situation, even with people who totally disagree with you that you can't find something.
Look for your connections with others.
You know, if there's the people you strongly disagree with and you want to figure out what
that's about, take it outside of the big gatherings.
Figure out terms of how you can understand each other better but look for the connections
with the people who are there because that's what you're going to value at the end of your
life and the end of the day, the end of the holidays is, I spent time with people who
are important to me.
Not I spent time trying to referee fights.
Right.
I think that's excellent advice.
Well, thank you so much for joining us Dr. Bufka and Dr. Safer.
It's been a pleasure having you.
Delighted to be with you.
It's been great.
If you've been a longtime listener or viewer, please consider giving us a rating in iTunes
or if you have time please write a review.
We'd really appreciate it.
We'd also like to hear from you directly, so if you have any questions or comments,
please email me at kluna@apa.org.
That's kluna@apa.org.
Speaking of Psychology is part of the APA podcast network, which includes other great
podcasts like APA Journals Dialogue, about the latest psychological research and Progress
Notes about the practice of psychology.
You can find our podcast on iTunes, Stitcher or wherever you get your podcasts.
You can also visit speakingofpsychology.org to view more episodes and to find resources
on the topics we discuss.
I'm your host, Kaitlin Luna for the American Psychological Association.
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