-Welcome to the show.
-Thank you for having me. I'm excited.
-Congratulations on the book.
These stories -- they're wonderful.
They are memorable.
They are, oftentimes, very disturbing.
Three of them take place in retail, in malls.
I have to assume, based on how horrifying
some of the retail experiences are,
that you had experience in this field.
-Yes. Unfortunately, I spent a long time working in the mall.
So, anyone who has worked in retail,
I'm right here in solidarity with you.
-Yeah. [ Cheers and applause ]
-So, yeah, I have been there, you know, on the sales floor.
-Were there times where you were on the sales floor, as a writer?
Were you constantly thinking? Were you using that time?
-Absolutely. As kind of, like, a way to cope with being there,
I tried to be elsewhere by making stories
about being there, which is kind of a roundabout way
of doing things, but yeah.
-This is a book of short stories.
What is it about the short-story form that you are drawn to?
-This might sound obvious, but I like how short they are.
[ Laughter ]
In my -- You know, I like to cut things down.
I like to have a story be just the essential, you know?
And so in my editing process, I just cut and cut and cut
you know, until I get pretty much to, like,
a blank page with nothing, and I'm like, "Perfect."
-Well, I should say that I was maybe most moved --
There is a story called "In Retail," I believe,
that is maybe only four or five pages.
-Yeah. -And it's so incredibly moving.
And I appreciated that -- I mean, when it was over,
I felt as though your message had completely
gotten through to me, and there was no extra fat on it.
-Yeah, I really try to, like, you know,
get right to the heart if I can.
And, I mean, even in my longer stories,
I try to keep that same energy, but I think
with the short-story form especially,
it feels like every single word has to serve a purpose,
you know, and I like that.
-Obviously, you pull from things like retail,
your personal experience.
There are also a lot of darker sources of inspiration.
The first story is called "The Finkelstein Murders," yes?
-"The Finkelstein Five." -"Five." Sorry.
And this was sort of inspired by shootings like
the Trayvon Martin shooting.
When you approach something like that, I mean, do you --
I mean, it must feel almost an oppressive undertaking.
-Yeah. You know, I try to be just as serious with those
kind of subjects as I can,
but, also, if I'm going to write fiction,
I have to write the things that matter in my life.
And so, you know, racism is a part of life in America.
If you're black, racism is a part of the experience.
And, so, I just try to be honest as I can
in telling that experience and also try to make the story
feel powerful and also engaging.
So, you know, it's just part of the deal, I guess.
-That story, as I said, opens the collection.
And pretty quickly in that story,
the main character is talking about his blackness scale --
1 to 10 on the blackness scale --
which isn't really about his own perception,
but how he's perceived.
How did you come up with that as
sort of the framework for that story?
-Yeah, I think if you're black, again, you sort of know that,
very often, it's likely that your race
will be held against you in terms of your opportunities
or maybe even your safety.
And, so, I was thinking about the ways different people
have different identities, but in this case, specifically,
black people have to sort of adjust themselves
to fit into spaces.
And, so, early on in that story,
he gets a call from a potential employer.
And, so, all of a sudden, he becomes, like --
You know, his voice changes.
He's like, "Hi, there.
How are you doing today," you know?
Trying to hide the blackness in his voice.
But, of course, I think part of that story is that blackness
is obviously something that can't be quantified,
especially not on some 10-point scale.
But he is, like you said,
responding to what people expect of him,
maybe the stereotypes associated with blackness,
rather than blackness itself.
-I have also heard you talk about something
that I will admit had not occurred to me,
but, of course, makes sense once you hear it,
which is the idea of white default in literature.
Can you just explain that a little bit?
-Yeah. I think that if I don't say someone is black
in a story, their default is to white.
And that's because of the overwhelming
homogeneous nature of all media, you know?
-Yeah.
-The canon is overwhelmingly white.
And so we're sort of trained, as early readers,
to think that the people we're supposed to look to
as protagonists, the people that we're supposed to follow,
people we're supposed to care about,
we assume that they are going to be white.
And I try to challenge that in my stories by sort of
making it impossible for a reader to default
any of my characters to white.
-You read a lot of fantasy, comic books,
manga stuff growing up.
Obviously, I can see how it influences your work.
Were you aware, when you were reading that stuff
in your younger days, that you were allowing it
to influence your work?
-I don't know that I was aware early on.
I just knew that I liked it.
And I'm glad I did, because I think as you
kind of pursue writing and you try to be literary --
Again, like, whatever that means,
'cause I'm still not super-sure what that means.
It often feels like to be literary is, like,
to be just as boring as you can be and still be good, you know?
And I try to push against that.
I think those forms that I sort of engaged with early on
are willing to be just as exciting
or engaging as possible, while still being vehicles
for important sort of -- I don't know --
philosophical discussions.
So that's why I think I'm very glad I kind of --
-Well, I really can't say enough how --
I mean, you balance that so well,
because, obviously, you know --
And anybody who's listening to us
understands that you talk about heavy topics,
but you have an incredibly -- There is a comic touch
that threads through it that I would have thought
would have been an impossible thing to achieve, which you do,
which is really great.
You are a teacher, as well, at Syracuse, yes?
-Yes, I teach at Syracuse University.
-Do you like being a teacher? Are there -- Is it rewarding?
-I love it. I texted my students.
They made a GroupMe after our last semester ended.
I was like, "Hey, guys, no big deal,
but I'm going to be on 'Seth Meyers' today."
What up, guys? [ Cheers and applause ]
-Well --
-But, no, I absolutely love it.
It's as rewarding as anything, I think.
And I found that kind of vocation in it
just as much as writing.
I think it's really just incredible
to get a young person, to get them to sort of
buy in to themselves, you know, get to, like,
sort of emerge in their own confidence,
a confidence about themselves, and I love seeing that.
-Well, they're very lucky. They have a great teacher.
And thank you so much for being here.
I really, really appreciate it.
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