-This has been an issue based on what happened this week --
George H.W. Bush passed away.
And you wrote an article for "The Intercept,"
basically a full accounting of his record.
And one of your criticisms was when politicians pass away
in the United States, the coverage is sort of glowing.
It's all their best qualities
and none of the things they did wrong.
Do you think that is unique to Americans
talking about politicians or is it just the way Americans
talk about anyone who passes away?
-I don't think it's unique to Americans.
I know when Margaret Thatcher died in the U.K.,
the same thing happened -- a lot of hagiography.
I do think you have this deference to power.
Your president, to be fair, is not just a head of government,
but a head of state, so it's kind of like
the Queen and Prime Minister rolled into one.
I get it.
And, you know, if somebody dies, it's sad.
Watching George Bush Jr. today cry as he gave that tribute.
I'm no fan of George W. Bush,
but to watch a son cry for his father,
that's, of course, very touching and heartbreaking.
But he wasn't just a father to George Bush.
He was also the most powerful man in the world for four years.
A lot of Iraqis died on his watch.
A lot of Panamanians died on his watch.
A lot of black people saw the racist ad campaign,
Willie Horton, that he ran in 1988.
A lot of people died in the AIDS crisis
that he didn't really pay much attention to,
in the war on drugs that he ramped up.
And I think it's worth recounting all of their lives.
Journalism is supposed to be the first draft of history,
where we need to give it to you full, warts and all.
You can't just say respect for the dead.
Yes, we should respect the dead and respect a dead president,
but also we should respect facts, history,
what actually happened. [ Cheers and applause ]
Otherwise, the country is screwed.
-Obviously it seems like the element that is really unique
to this is how much journalists are saying
he was the opposite of our current president.
And they are talking about how civil he was, and you know,
you bring up and I recommend people read the article,
both the things he did that he's very good at
and moments that people would say were uncivil.
Do you think people are actually drawing a distinction between
Donald Trump and George H.W. Bush was like this
or do you think they want
George H.W. Bush to have been that civil?
Whether or not he was,
they want to believe in the idea that we had --
-And in many ways he was, and in many ways --
I mean, look, if he had died under Barack Obama,
I think we'd be having a different discussion.
I think dying during a Trump presidency
means we all look at him
and say, "Why can't George H.W. Bush be president?"
He wasn't nuts.
He wasn't a crazy racist in the same way that Trump is.
He's not a narcissist. He wasn't a draft dodger.
He served his country. He didn't have bone spurs.
Fair enough. [ Laughter ]
So we do look at him in that way.
We want to believe he's something better than Trump.
Trump makes George Bush look good.
Trump makes everyone look good, right?
[ Applause ]
But we can't lower -- I don't think we should lower the bar.
It's the presidency of the United States.
We need to take it seriously.
I don't think we should lower the bar so much
that we say he's not Trump, therefore he's great.
Or today, Trump went to a funeral and didn't tweet
or insult anyone or drool,
therefore he's acting presidential.
If that's the criteria, I have a 6-year-old daughter at home.
She's ready for the Oval Office.
And she has an American birth certificate.
-Well, there you go. Well, we would love to meet her.
-We'll bring her back. -She sounds fantastic.
Last thing -- you talked to General Michael Flynn.
You interviewed him a few times. -Yes.
-What was your take on interacting with him?
Are you surprised where we are now?
-Not really. General Michael Flynn --
I interviewed a couple of times during the campaign.
Very nice guy. Very friendly. We got along very well,
which is weird because he thinks Islam is evil
and we should all be afraid of Muslims.
Minor issues, but we got along well.
[ Laughter ]
And he -- I didn't think he was the sharpest tool in the box.
I didn't think he would last long in government,
but 24 days is a very short period.
-Yeah. -Still --
-It's a double Scaramucci, though.
-It's a double Scaramucci in measurement terms.
What was interesting is I interviewed him,
and it was a very tough interview,
and I kind of pinned him down
and I did all these tough questions.
And at the end, I said, "General Flynn --"
this was in the summer of 2016 --
"Will you take a job from Donald Trump?
Will you serve as his defense secretary
or national security adviser?"
And he kind of laughed uncomfortably.
He said, "Not after this conversation."
And I remember thinking just the other day, I was like,
"If only he had stuck to that,
he wouldn't be a criminal today in massive debt."
But, you know, we tried to help him out.
-You did your best, yeah.
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