- All right. Here we are.
- We're back.
- What are we doing?
- We're having a conversation with Sarah. What's going on?
- Hi.
- Thanks for coming on.
- [Sarah] Absolutely. I'm excited to be here.
- I know we don't want to do the generic
like who are you and what do you do,
but before this you were just talking to David
and said something interesting,
which is you're a CEO of this company, Lever,
you do this once a quarter, and David's like,
"What brings you to Boston?"
You said, "Once a quarter, I get out and go meet customers.
That seems, we were just saying that's crazy.
How many CEO's are doing that?
And why do you do it?
- Oh, it's my addiction.
It kind of gets to my background
and what even drew me to tech in the first place,
because I have the great honor and privilege
of being a designer founder,
so my education was in design,
I studied design at Stanford.
I don't know if you're at all familiar
with the Stanford D school,
but they're kind of big proponents
of what they call human centered design thinking.
Essentially that's saying, use a blend of psychology,
as well as being kind of a technologist,
and go in and identify the needs of like single people,
groups of people, and use that almost like
understanding of their needs
as the starting point for innovation.
So, I am addicted to user research
and getting that firsthand exposure to how teams work,
how organizations work,
and I kind of feel like you've got to go out there.
It's maybe like my indulgence, or-
- [DG] Going back to basics.
- Yeah. The design team doesn't let me
do design of Lever anymore,
so this is kind of my one contribution
still in the design camp.
That's what brings me out here, and it's the best.
I love it.
- It's funny. It feels like that's back,
that kind of thinking is back,
because kind of early in ... I have gray hair,
so I've been around a long time, but early on,
there was a lot of human centered work.
You would read about it in like CMU
and a lot of places like that, that were focused on this.
It was kind of, this is back in New York City,
where I grew up, and worked originally,
and it was kind of a big thing,
and then I felt like I didn't hear about it for a long time,
and I feel like I'm hearing about it a lot more now.
The importance of design.
I don't know why it's fluctuated,
like most things ebb and flow.
- Yeah. At least for me,
I think that everybody now has been
using a smartphone, a tablet, for years,
and the simplicity that you've come to expect from software,
from applications, it's kind of the new normal.
Lever, of course, builds software
for businesses to run their hiring process.
I think now what we're seeing is people are now demanding
really elegant, simple user experiences in the workplace,
so out with the clunky, click-heavy, confusing systems,
that nobody really wanted to work with.
The things that actually almost got in the way of you-
- [DG] Working.
- Working.
And in with this kind of new generation of software,
and I feel like Drift is a big part of that, too,
that people are actually drawn to,
where the software kind of melts away,
and you're just collaborating with your colleagues,
you're just making connections, making decisions,
and I actually think that's kind of a big reason why
design has a really important role to play
in catalyzing change.
- I agree.
- It's something that we talk about a lot here,
which is like, what's changed is,
everybody has that experience in their personal lives now,
so then when you go to work,
you don't expect it to be different.
You're not like, you're using Instagram
and WhatsApp and whatever, and that's just in messaging,
as an example, but whatever products I'm using,
whatever I'm using for email, what I'm using for video,
and then you go into work and you're like,
okay, it's time to use my business software,
and it feels like this crazy, outdated piece of software.
- Yeah. It used to be clunky on both sides,
and now it's like so, everyone's been taught about
the importance of design in everything that we consume
in our normal lives, that you see the stark difference
when you come to work. It's really highlighted.
Did you know, Keith is the master of crushes.
- [DC] Yes. This is another super thing.
He's done a good job, though.
Every one of Keith's super,
every one of Keith's fandom things,
has always panned out into a great podcast episode,
so I think we're in good company.
- Yeah. Lever might be his like second biggest crush.
His biggest crush is someone who we've had
on the podcast before, and speak, Molly Graham.
- [Sarah] Molly Graham.
- Yeah.
- [Sarah] She's amazing.
Give away your Legos. Give away your Legos.
Listen to that episode everybody.
- Oh yeah. Biggest crush ever.
He's been talking about Molly Graham forever,
and he's been talking about Lever since, when was it?
When we were at HubSpot. A while ago.
Fourteen? 2014? Yeah?
Maybe thirteen? Fourteen? Something like that.
- What was it? What was it that he said?
- He was like, well one, he was obsessed about-
- He was onto us early.
- Very early.
- That was when we launched our very first,
first version of the product.
- Very early on. Fourteen, and he was ...
One, we were trying to do,
we took a different approach to recruiting within our team,
which was the product, engineering, design,
that side of the company,
and I wanted this approach that was like,
it's all meta, because of all this, what we're doing now,
which is all focused on the candidate, and focused on like,
because I've been just obsessed about like experiences,
because I think experiences are the new thing that you buy.
It's not even like, for us, I talk about it all the time,
like it's not a product or a service
or a human thing or a bot thing,
it's just like an experience that I want,
and those are the only things
that we disproportionately value now, are these experiences,
and so I wanted this amazing candidate experience, right?
And because I think the candidate experience
is the experience, is the brand, is the whole thing,
like every piece is the brand, and so I wanted that,
and we had kind of a clunky process
in the rest of recruiting in HubSpot,
so we created our own process in there,
and so we had Keith totally focus on that,
and we took an approach of recruiting people,
one person at a time.
We didn't use any of the tools or any of the approaches
that the rest of the company used.
And at some point, Keith was dying for an ATS,
but I wouldn't let him buy an ATS for a long time,
because, forever, actually, that was the whole thing,
forever, because I didn't want the tool to get in the way,
and I didn't want the-
- [Sarah] That's exactly what we're talking about,
this kind of old generation, new generation,
the conflict that existed, it's really crazy.
- I said, "Keith," I said, "What should we talk about?"
He's like, "Ask her this," because the line was, he said,
"They built a product that was built
for the candidate experience.
Not the recruiter experience."
that seems like the thread, right?
- Is that the idea behind Lever?
- Yeah. I, just to kind of set the stage,
I think the biggest idea behind Lever
is that how we think about our careers has changed,
and therefore, of course,
how you have to think about hiring has changed,
how you have to think about
designing recruiting has changed,
how you of course have to think about
recruiting software has changed.
What has changed about employment and careers
and our expectations from work,
as of course millennials enter the workforce,
we're seeing these macroeconomic,
macro cultural things, shift.
The Bureau of Labor Statistics is probably the best,
certainly in the US, the best source of these kind of like
data insights, and one of the things that they're tracking,
is of course average tenure that people are staying in jobs.
I think about my parents, and my dad has changed jobs twice
in his entire life.
- [DG] It's amazing.
- And people are now expected to have something like
seven jobs in their twenties.
- Yeah. Just in their twenties.
- Just in their twenties. Yeah.
- That's amazing.
- Essentially the average time
that people are staying in a company is shortening,
not because the companies are bad, the jobs are bad,
but just the new belief that people have
about what work is worth doing
and what experiences, experiences,
they want in their careers.
I think as a response to that,
organizations need to completely embrace
a different kind of like premise on talent,
and increasingly you are attracting people to you,
you are hiring people as kind of an ongoing velocity,
and in response to that, I think recruiting is shifting
away from this administrative, kind of paperwork,
like I post a job and I fill it too.
- We have a conversation here internally
with the recruiting team,
who can sometimes feel married to the system, which is like,
well, we're having a conversation with Sarah,
and well, what role is she in?
We don't have this, it's not listed in here.
- Yes. Right?
- And then where does this go after?
- That's the old administrative mindset.
That's because recruiting came out of HR,
but in the new world, people are realizing that
we have to think about talent as a velocity,
and managing that pipeline
is a lot more like sales and marketing
and the other strategic parts of the business,
and of course therefore, you've got to go beyond applicants,
and break out of thinking about this
post a job and fill it world, and starting thinking about
building and managing relationships.
Having something compelling from a storytelling perspective
to tell these people.
You're seeing the rise of recruitment marketing,
of talent branding, and I think true success happens
when you do one really critical last thing,
which is make it kind of part of
the entire company's responsibility.
- Yeah. Hundred percent.
- Every single person is collaborating, contributing.
If you can built it into your culture,
that you are all ambassadors of opportunities here,
then I think that's where the flywheel of succeeding-
- Starts spinning.
- With the new kind of like call it
millennial talent challenge,
I think that's when people really start seeing success.
- Totally agree. We try to live that every day here,
of just like, it's everyone's job to recruit, right?
- Yeah.
- Referrals are a big part of it.
You mentioned, we mentioned something earlier,
which was job descriptions, which is like,
actually back in, when he discovered Lever at first,
part of what I was trying to resist with a traditional ATS,
not Lever, was just the software getting in the way,
and one of those things was that was driving me crazy
was just the whole idea of job descriptions.
Because it kind of forced this behavior
that I saw in the other recruiting departments
in other companies I had been at, which is like,
we have a rec, we have to fill this rec.
How do we know this is the best person?
Because they have the most things
that are identified on this rec.
It was this whole meta thing.
I was like, at some point,
I got rid of all recs in our team, and just said,
we're just going to recruit people one at a time.
We're going to adapt jobs
to the skills of the people that come in.
I said because the recs were like,
we were hiring people almost on autopilot,
because they filled some requirements,
and my thing was like, I made up all the requirements.
Someone, in this case it was me,
but someone, somewhere, sat and made up requirements.
Which were frozen at some point of time
and thinking of the company,
which will probably all change by the time someone's there.
Will definitely change a year from now.
So it was just a weird way of checkbox,
like they had the most checkbox, so we should hire them.
- [Sarah] Yeah.
- [DC] There's a crazy ...
We actually just felt this recently.
DC found this amazing candidate for a role
that we don't have posted,
and he reaches out to her, sends her an email.
She says, "Oh, thank you so much for the note.
Big fan of what you all are doing over there.
But I looked at the website,
and it doesn't look like I'm a good fit
for the job that you have posted. Best of luck."
Then we're like, "No, no, no! No! Don't worry about that.
That's actually not ...
The reason we're reaching out
is because we think there's a fit.
We don't even know the job description. Let's talk."
The thing we've found is so many
of the best people at Drift, there was very rarely ever a,
we were hiring for X, we found X.
It's like, whoa. We happened to meet Gonzalo.
We happened to meet whoever. Then that's how it happens.
- That's the thing, right? So many of these HR systems,
they didn't actually have a whole lot of room
for humans in them. That's actually one thing
that is one of my biggest, I
guess you could call it pet peeves,
about the software category that Lever is in,
and something we're really trying to change.
We're trying to, I guess like, do all these things.
We've talked about making modern, simple,
user friendly software, but at the same time we're also,
it's not about the process, it's about the people.
For better or for worse,
we've decided to build our whole notion of
what is the fundamental unit in our system? It's a person.
Yeah. We're a lot more like a CRM,
like a relationship management platform,
than we are like a process management platform.
And one of the things that we put a lot of effort into
is building those relationships
and doing it kind of getting your people,
your employees, at the forefront.
We have this product that we call Lever Nurture.
It is a way for you to take people
that maybe you don't have a job open,
or maybe they're currently at a job,
and you're just trying to keep-
- The relationship going.
- The relationship going. Yeah. You can reach out to them.
It doesn't have to be some kind of automated,
weird, impersonal thing.
You can actually have the real voices of different people
at your company, be the ones that are sharing their story.
- [DC] I love that.
- Yeah, and it's like, that's,
I think, what organizations want,
to build relationships that way,
talent out there want to build relationships that way.
If you actually kind of make a marriage,
those are going to be employees that are passionate,
invested in your culture, invested in your brand,
in your mission. Yeah.
I really do believe there's a new way to hire out there.
I think Lever's doing its part to try to make change,
but I think organizations and leaders inside of companies,
sometimes it's scary to stick your neck out and do it,
and that's why I think the companies
that are going through hyper growth
are the ones that are driving the most innovation,
that are taking the biggest risks,
and I think that they are proving that
that way of thinking that's better for everybody
is more successful,
because they're able to pull off this astounding,
like year over year growth,
and like have such strong cultures while they're doing it.
- Yeah, and at the end of the day,
what we think and what we see is just like,
it's all the people.
You talked about sales and marketing and this,
and moving recruiting and people up to that level,
and it's like, in my view,
it's like it's more important than those things,
because those things are just the end result
of having the right team.
Whether you succeed or not to me is the team.
- Yeah, and tying it back to that macroeconomic again,
we saw a shift in the past
from the industrial to sort of the service industry.
I would even say we're going from a service industry to,
you might call it an experience industry,
where knowledge workers and the creative class,
it is just people.
It's not even the industrial machine anymore.
It really is the ingenuity, creativity, passion of people.
Yeah. I think the emphasis on finding the right fits
and making those kind of matches in the world,
that's both getting harder, but also more business critical.
- Yeah. What led you to want to be a designer?
- Oh my gosh.
- What's the origin story? And where did you grow up?
- Of being a designer. The origin story.
Now we're really going back.
I'll give you fifty guesses
to guess what state I grew up in.
- Okay.
(laughing)
I think California.
- Not California. No.
- Okay. Let's see.
- It's got to be like a ...
- Yeah. A hard one.
- Got to be like the middle of the country somewhere,
just something that we're not thinking of.
- You sound ... I don't know.
It sounds like you're a West Coast.
- All right. Well, I won't torture you.
Alabama. Birmingham.
- No way. Okay. Was your dad in NASA?
- No. Though good call. Huntsville, Alabama.
- Oh, you were out of Huntsville.
- No. I was in Birmingham.
- Birmingham. Okay.
- Yeah, no, I ... My dad is in medical research,
and there's a medical school there.
I ... Yeah. Growing up in the South,
as an Asian-American,
is definitely an interesting experience.
I wasn't born there, so I even moved there,
and I think at the time I was like a preteen.
I was just like, we're going where?
But honestly-
- Birmingham, Alabama.
- It was such a great experience for me.
- I've never been.
- I would recommend it. It's getting very hip nowadays.
- Oh, really?
- I sort of don't even recognize it when I go home.
There's like artisanal coffee and climbing gyms,
and all sorts of things.
- Everything is getting hip now, because of the internet.
- Everything is getting hip.
- The internet is giving access.
- It's Instagram. Right? (laughing)
- Yeah. Totally. It's Instagram.
I grew up in New York City, and so I grew up there,
and the time I grew up, it's like,
obviously this is before the commercial internet,
and everyone would come,
or the dawn of the commercial internet,
and everyone would come from all parts of the country
to be there, because to be in certain kinds of scenes,
which you would describe, artisanal coffee, whatever,
whatever hip scene you wanted,
whether it was art or what have you, you had to be there.
- [Sarah] Yeah.
- Or you had to be in some other city like that, to,
because everyone was there
and that's how you kind of learned about all this stuff.
Then as the further you were away from those centers,
the harder it was to be part of those scenes.
And then I do think there is this part of like
what the internet, one thing the internet helped do,
especially Instagram,
is like to make that accessible to everyone,
so like you can go anywhere and have the
blue bottle equivalent
or the hipster this or the hipster that,
and that wasn't the case ever before.
- Yeah. Well, there is something
that has always made me really passionate about technology
which is how it democratizes things.
- Yes.
- Absolutely. Yeah.
From Birmingham, Alabama, to where I am today,
what happened? Well, let's see.
I think that if I trace back
all the sort of ingredients I guess
that led me to Lever, there definitely is a part of it
that comes from Alabama.
We founded Lever in 2012.
It really was because it was this great opportunity
to combine what was this amazing thing
happening in the world,
whether or not Lever existed,
talent was changing, recruiting was changing.
There was something big happening there,
so we've got to do something about it.
- You came from Google?
- I came out of Google, and I think-
- The Lazlo Bock era.
- It was really ... Yes, this is definitely Lazlo Bock era.
It was front row seats.
I actually had the great fortune to,
my very first job out of college was,
of all things, speech writing, for Marissa Meyer.
- How?
- I asked her later and she was just like,
she had an answer for me,
but I still was just like, I don't know, this is just like-
- When Keith mentioned that, I was like,
was that like a posted job that you applied for?
- No. No.
The answer Marissa gave me was, you know,
She at the time,
had been really involved in hiring and talent,
I mean really involved,
and she made a bet with Jonathan Rosenberg,
who was another executive at Google at the time,
"I bet I can grow talent faster than you can hire talent."
and I feel like this was just part of Google's entire ethos
about recognizing that the rules had changed,
the game had changed.
How you have to think about hiring.
You've got to get way more creative, way more strategic,
way more proactive.
She founded the associate program at Google,
which is kind of like the most-
- The APM program.
- Exactly. It's kind of the most unremarkable name
for what created a whole kind of ...
It was a remarkable opportunity for me personally,
and a lot of great people
who have gone on to do great things, have been a part of it.
She knew she wanted one of her associates
to be her speech writer,
and she had never had anybody do this before.
It was the first time anybody was going to be helping her.
So it's probably exactly like the kind of job
that Dave tries to hire for.
She picked my resume out of the pile,
because I had studied engineering, check.
She speaks largely to engineering audiences,
and about engineering.
She at the time was VP of Search and User Experience.
So then I also had the design-
- [DC] Design side. Yeah.
- Side. And then I, of all things,
had a minor in comparative literature.
It's just like, and she can write. Get her in here.
- The rest was that.
- Just drew it up.
- Yeah.
- Awesome.
- What did you learn from that experience?
Not like, obviously I'm sure you-
- Front row seats to how hiring and talent
is a sea level issue.
We would be ...
I would work with her on her internal speaking,
her external speaking,
and I can't tell you the number of times that hiring,
recruiting, talent, came up.
Board meetings, we're talking about here.
- Yeah, definitely.
- And it was kind of just remarkable in the Lazlo era
to get to see how creative Google was getting,
how much they were investing in it,
and how much that investment paid off
in what of course would become a game changing industry,
revolutionizing talent brand, recruitment process,
and they cooked up some custom software over there as well.
I think the Google environment really informed
a lot of what I could then see truly worked,
and so one of my co founders, also comes from Google,
Nate Smith, also was in the associate program.
- Nice.
- Yeah. So I think we had a really clear vision
of what would be important in our software.
It had to be a CRM,
it had to bring in the best of
you could call it sales and marketing technology to talent,
and it had to make recruiting a shared,
collaborative experience for running the company.
That was a huge part of Google. Yeah.
Of course we left Google to go do that,
so thank you to the Goog.
So 2012, we got started.
Then I think the second thing
that of course was part of my background,
that led me to Lever, was that design education.
We left Google and most intrepid startup founders,
like busily close customers, build software.
We didn't do any of that.
We actually spent our first nine months as a company
doing immersive user research.
- [DC] Get out of here.
- Yeah.
- [DC] That's awesome.
- We reached out to a bunch of companies,
a bunch got back to us,
and we just set up camp inside of recruiting teams,
surrounded by busy recruiters.
I think one of the people that we spent a lot of time with
on the ground was Twitter,
when they were going from 700 to 1500 employees
in six months.
- Crazy. That type of growth. Yeah.
- Yeah.
- And Google did it way faster.
- I think that design approach
is embedded into us as a company,
and we haven't stopped ever since.
Then I actually do think bringing Alabama back in here,
the way Alabama has even surprised me
in being a really big influence
in terms of my personal approach to Lever,
has actually been in our focus on diversity and inclusion.
- Yeah. I mean, you're 50/50, right? From gender base.
- 50/50 in the company overall.
We're actually 43% women
in technical and engineering roles.
- What? How's that ... What kind of Judo? Teaches the Judo.
- Yeah. 53% women in leadership and management.
40% percent women on our board.
- That's amazing.
- Yeah. And we're 40% non-white.
One of the areas we actually have to really work on
is supporting parents
and lots of different family structures better,
so that's been a new initiative in the last few years.
Yeah. We have invested a lot in diversity inclusion.
I'm really proud of where we are,
and of course there's a lot more to do yet.
And I do think that that, for me, it's almost surprised me,
because now I can look back and see this thread,
but at the time I wouldn't have necessarily seen it,
but when I was in high school,
I was one of two non-white people in my school.
- That's crazy.
- Yeah. My entire school.
And Birmingham as a city was actually very segregated.
Like resegregated, almost.
And it was really obvious
that there were the white communities,
there were the black communities, and I ...
My guidance counselor picked me out
to go to one of these cross pollination things
at the Civil Rights Institute,
which is an amazing institution in Birmingham,
and all the leaders from the civil rights movement
are still working and doing amazing work
for their communities today.
I go to this program, this like day off of school,
and you do all this stuff,
and all the programming is built around if you're white,
go over here, if you're black, go over here.
Or we'll do a mixed thing of like ...
I'm just like, where do I go?
It was really, I actually from that,
spent four years working with the Civil Rights Institute.
It was kind of my passion thing.
It was what I did in high school.
I kind of never thought that would come full circle.
I always thought diversity would matter for Lever
so from the time we were like sub ten employees,
we had a DNI committee, and we invested in it from day one,
but I think for a long time I thought that that would be,
we would just do it for us.
Because 2012, the conversation about diversity
was not nearly as at the forefront now.
If you think about back then,
even the Ellen Payo kind of thing.
- Yeah, sure, I remember.
- Like, yeah, it was ... It was just not quite ...
I didn't see things making a lot of progress.
Then of course since then,
it's just been really invigorating for us,
as certainly a company that invests in it for ourselves,
but also as a company that has from day one
factored in how will our decisions in our product
affect fairness, equality, diversity.
- Especially your product. Yeah.
- Yeah. Bias. We've thought about it from day one,
but now we are actually hearing,
you could call it the market, care about that too.
- It's wild. It's a different time.
I always tell the story that, of Lewis, is my co founder,
and I met him like ten years ago,
but that I had worked, and I'm from New York City,
not Birmingham, New York City,
but I had worked in technology for ten years,
and I had never worked with a brown person.
I was the only one. I had never even seen one.
Like worked with one. On the software engineering side,
which is where I came from.
Not until I met him, and I was like,
he's from Nicaragua,
and I was like, "You're the first one."
- Wow.
- It was crazy. Ten years. It was insane.
And that was in New York.
- That is really crazy.
- This was radically different now.
- It is, and I think, even at places
where let's call it the demographics aren't there now,
the conversation-
- Is there. For sure.
- Is there. And that's I think almost more important.
Yeah. I would say that ...
Well, I don't know.
Are the listeners of this podcast interested in
sort of like, the three lessons or the three takeaways?
- They're just interested in everything. Yeah. Whatever.
Whatever takeaways you have.
- Okay. Well, if I had to roll up,
what are the three most critical things to do
when you're about to start hiring for hyper growth,
or to pull that off successfully,
I think one, go beyond applicants.
- [DC] Yes. It's the number one thing I talk about.
I'll come back to that.
- Two, make sure hiring is collaborative, and a team sport.
And then three is, invest in diversity inclusion.
- Yep.
- Those are the three things
you really can't ever retroactively,
it's always the stuff you would've, could've, should've,
afterwards.
- It's almost like you can't wait until hyper growth
for that to happen.
You have to ... It has to be in the DNA,
it has to be the groundwork that you lay on day one,
so you can be set up for that.
- To me those three things are, in my view, layered.
They're the same.
I always, with Keith and the recruiting team,
I'm always, when we talk about,
because they'll bring up, it's like,
how do we get better diversity? How do we get better this?
Then it's like, it's the decisions you make every day.
You may say that, but you as,
I'm just picking on a recruiter,
are just taking the easiest stuff that comes in,
and you're not saying, I'm not going to take that,
I'm going to do the hard work
and I'm going to spend the time to invest and go do this.
That's actually how it happens.
It doesn't happen because we create a magic program
or something. There's no magic program answer.
- Absolutely.
You said you were impressed
that over 40% of our engineering team are women.
- Super impressed.
- 83% of our engineering team was proactively sourced.
- Yes. That's how.
- They go hand in hand.
- Hand in hand. That's exactly how.
Otherwise, it would never happen.
- Yeah. Or I guess I should say referrals.
- Referrals. Yeah.
That makes the whole thing one thing, right?
Because the referrals and getting your team involved,
diversity has to be part of that conversation,
and then doing the hard work,
the whole thing has to work together.
- And if you think about it, a recruiter,
what do you measure recruiters on?
How many jobs you fill, right?
If you have an inbound applicant,
it's a good conversation you have with them,
they seem great, why would you not make that hire,
versus if you can go the other way, and like you're doing,
83% is from outbound, you can actually control that.
We had a conversation recently
about a new role we were opening up here at Drift.
It's like, wait a second.
We have the opportunity to shape this role
to be whatever we want it to be.
Let's start from there and then go build it the right way,
as opposed to like, okay, well, here's who applied,
so we've got to pick somebody from this pile.
- Pick the best person from the pile. Yeah.
And I mean, actually,
you talked about hating job descriptions,
we do something at Lever that I actually,
this is my one huge thing.
I actually get a little grumbles from people
because they know it's my big thing.
- I get plenty of grumbles.
- Which is, we don't do job descriptions.
We do impact descriptions.
- Oh. Nice.
- We completely flip it. You don't describe a person,
like an ideal person
skills, responsibilities, requirements,
we actually say, describe the impact that we need,
and so you write what within one, three,
six and twelve months, this person,
what the impact will be.
- Impact will be. I love that.
- Yeah.
It works on so many levels.
I think one,
it actually gives a recruiter a great picture
of like what kind of person they need,
and you're actually tapping into their skills
to maybe match unorthodox or diverse profiles
or backgrounds into this,
it's like, oh yeah, I totally know, I can ask about this,
or I know what to do.
Two, this is totally where you could call it
your hire managers,
but like the employees know their stuff,
comes to what impact goals, success they need.
They don't know how to describe a recruiting JD.
You're getting your employees engaged.
And then I think thirdly,
you're actually getting the best candidates out there
a compelling story.
And the best candidates out there
read a standard job description,
their eyes glaze over, and they move on.
So you're almost like recusing yourself from
like the top five percentile that you actually want to hire.
When you can paint the picture of like
here's the progression you're going to make
over your first year,
and when they look at that twelve month bucket,
here's like what it alludes to beyond that.
That's, again, how you speak to this new kind of talent,
talent strategy. Yeah. I'd say, like check out-
- I'm going to check that out.
- Check out Lever's jobs. We write them all as.
- Everyone check out Lever's jobs.
- What impact you'll have in one, three,
six, twelve months.
- I love that.
Because that was my other problem with the job description,
was like, that it selects, as you said, it selects for,
like the person that you really want
is not going to read this job description.
And knows Excel, you know proficient with Excel
and knows ... No one's going to read that.
The person, the breakout person that you want,
is never going to sit and read that thing,
and they're probably not going to be inbound either.
You have to go to them with a compelling story, right?
You're going to go out, outbound,
and you're going to go find them,
and you're going to have to find them
with a compelling story.
- It also sets that person up for success on day one.
You come in and it's like, okay, now what do I ...
You already know what you have to do.
Here's the roadmap.
- Yeah.
- It's like, 90% of onboarding. Check. Done.
- All right. DC, send us ... Wrap us up.
- Sarah, where can we find you online?
- Oh my gosh.
That's a great question.
I am very easy to find on LinkedIn.
I am super easy to find on Twitter.
So I'm @SRHNHM and yeah, I just,
I mean, certainly, if there's any talent leaders out there,
who want to talk shop about
how to make change in this industry,
just ... I nerd out about this stuff all day,
and as we said at the beginning of the podcast,
meeting people, organizations, teams, that-
- You love it.
- Yeah. I love it.
- That's awesome.
- Love it.
- Check out Sarah online, and leave a six star review,
not five star, we want six star review.
Six stars. Love it.
- Yeah, we break the-
- Do you know anybody at Apple that could help us with the-
- Showing your six star.
- People leave a five star, and then in the comments,
they leave a sixth star. So six star rating only for Sarah.
Give her some love. Follow her on Twitter. Check out Lever.
Again, Keith has a huge crush on Lever.
If you know Keith, you know he loves Lever.
Take care everyone.
- Thanks Sarah.
- Thanks.
- See you.
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