[Music]
Our honorees embody the breadth
and depth of the field of psychology and each has been a pioneer in her own way
Dr. Chang is the first ethnic minority woman to serve on EPA's board of
directors Dr. Gupta as founder of the 3d program for women and girls and Dr. Kawakami
young in her role is the first woman of Asian descent to serve as an
editor of an EPA journal. so I'm just wondering we know where you are now what
sort of girl were you like what was your childhood like please um I was um the
fourth of four children and a very conservative stereotypical Chinese
immigrant family so I was very quiet and very submissive
I changed *laughter* pretty similar I was a middle child of three in an Indian family and
very quiet under-confident and not shy so much is not very talkative didn't say
much wanted very much to be a good girl
I grew up in a small logging town in British Columbia Canada and the middle
child of six of six children and um yeah shy I used to follow my brother around and
try and keep up with them but yeah very similar so what changed for you all it
didn't change for me that I realized it was changed what what changed was I kept
going and as I graduated from my graduate studies I became very involved
in the American Psychological Association by default but I actually
became involved and as I became involved there were people that were interested
in women in psychology I'd never heard of that before
and so that changed and as that changed I began to grow in terms of my public
service for me I think what changed was a
fairly traumatic event that occurred when I was in eighth grade where I had a
teacher who was emotionally abusive extremely so and I couldn't talk about
it I was quiet about it at home but it all
eventually came out and I sort of was provided the support by the school
principal to sort of slowly build up again my self-esteem and my confidence
and once that was established through a good academic record which I had failed
most of my school years in many many subjects so by the time I graduated from
high school because in those days those examinations were graded by teachers
outside of our school all the way in England actually the Cambridge exam is
what we gave and I did really well on that after years of not doing well yeah
and it sort of proved to me this self-fulfilling prophecy that exists in
faculty rooms you know when a child is branded as being not so good everybody
proves it to be true and that made me interested in what happened to me which
led me to psychology and made me work very hard to understand what psychology
taught especially the different schools of psychology and became somebody
different very consciously I dressed differently after that I decided I would
be somebody else not that person I was there so it was a
very conscious choice and because I academically did well then and got
recognition for it I gained confidence over the years I don't know if I've
changed that much from the shy quiet girl I was then but one of the things
that really drove me to understand trying to understand psychology and
diversity and discrimination was that my father was placed in and Japanese
internment camp during the Second World War so I knew the importance of social
justice and I wanted to better understand
processes related to social categorization and their implications so
you know when why do people perceive others as belonging to certain
categories and how you can change associations related to those types of
categories so it was just something that I always was of interest and seemed
important to me so that's yeah so I could still be shy and quiet and work in
the lab trying to extend myself beyond beyond those of that world so Dr. Chang
you didn't actually say what brought you to psychology
oh my story is interesting you know that in Chinese families the stereotype is
that everybody needs to become a psyc become a scientist so I I left high
school thinking I was going to become an organic chemist but I went to UCLA and
of course I didn't make good enough grades to be a chemistry major and then
I got sort of discouraged and dropped out of school and when I went back I
decided I should look for off something that I made good grades and so I could
graduate from college hmm and so this is survival skills I
always tell my students you have to use a little bit of common sense to survive
and so I I did well in English and I did well in psychology little did I know at
that time that if you didn't get a PhD in psychology you weren't going to be
able to make it in the field nowadays that's a slightly different but in the
60s and 70s that was not the case and so I ended up getting a PhD in psychology
just out of necessity
and you've talked about inspirational figures or folks who had a major impact
in your lives are oh can you talk a little more about that yeah
the major impact was there was when I went back to UCLA they had a Dean of
women at that time and she said surely with the kinds of recommendations and
the grades and SAT scores you had something awful must have happened to
you that you just disappeared from school I dropped out and I was one of
those Asian statistics that tried to commit suicide and I said well my I
didn't what I didn't say was I came from the stereotypical traditional family
where women were not valued because I never said those sorts of things while
my parents were still living so since my parents are not no longer living and
since my family all knows I feel this way
I'm very public about it now because in many of the Asian families and still
today women are not valued and I feel like if I can show people that women are
valued in whatever way that it helps so the Dean of women said and the Dean of
women wrote a letter to my parents asked my parents if they would support me
coming back to school and my parents wrote this is what they wrote because I
have a copy of it this is not a daughter of ours we will not be helping her we
have two sons in college we're taking care of them and so anyway the Dean of
women immediately put me on a work-study project and gave me a national defense
in education law and so I went to UCLA and I worked my way through on our study
so I'm very grateful that was a major role model but I didn't know she was a
role model at that time the next role model was a psychologist that suggested
that every time I said I was overwhelmed that I threatened my classmates and I
was overwhelmed all the time I was scared to death but so he
suggested that I get a little experience and he set me up with a whole lot of
experience things that I could do research projects what we call student
consulting and I was very happy to do that and very excited and then that was
great mentoring for me so I'm very thankful so the rest of the
mentoring for what I do today and what I did for APA happened at APA with the
Council of Representatives with division 35
I got brave enough to start the ethnic minority caucus when there were no
caucuses for ethnic minorities and actually the staff and some of you will
remember this the staff from Public Interest had to come and sit on our
table so that we could have some conversations of what we needed to do
for that underserved populations yeah so you know APA has been very important to
me big role models in APA thank you and for you role models... it's it's sort of
interesting to see the parallels but but differences too so I grew up in a family
where the women were very strong very confident I came from an Indian family
where my mother was the third generation working woman outside the home so it was
my role models at home were very strong carrer oriented women confident and so mine
was more to rise up to that bar rather than any pressure to do science or
engineering which also typically exists in Indian families but what happened to
me then is when I started going to college I realized that not all girls
live in families like mine and that the inequalities that they experienced the
fact that my classmates in the second year of college were discussing getting
married and that boys were coming to see them for arranged marriages made me
aware suddenly that I lived in a society that was very different from the family
in which I had grown up and so I think that that's what inspired
me that combined with the many women role models I had in the family to sort
of look into those gender inequalities and see what is the psychology of
society that shoves women aside and oppresses them in such a strong way the
inequality indicators in India still very stuck and cannot be justified given
the economic growth in India so there's something clearly happening within
society that holds women back and so in order to try and understand that I
became a clinical psychologist because I thought I'm gonna fix one man at a time
and fix this problem once and for all and that's what led to the setting up of
the counseling center in the suicide prevention center but in four years I
realized pretty quickly that this requires bigger policy changes it
requires laws to change and that's what led me in the direction of policy work
for women living in poverty for women in development so I would say my biggest
inspiration is very clichéd as my mom mm-hmm who managed to do it all and
raise incredible daughters but also the women I worked for you know the women in
who live in poverty who live against in or despite enormous
odds and suffer such incredible oppression and discrimination how they
continue to keep their families together work hard earn the resources even if
they don't have jobs they figure out how to do that and still if you ask them
what they get beaten at home they experienced such gross violations of
their rights and yet if you ask them what's your single highest priority of
how I can help you it's always food for my children and that's startling to me
and incredibly impressive how they make things happen despite the limited resources
they have thank you when I previewed this question I automatically thought
about researchers but so I'm going to limit myself to that rather than the
larger context but I think in social psychology we're really lucky because
there are so many strong women leaders and strong women researchers and you
know my research is related to understanding social categorization and
discrimination prejudice stereotyping and there've being some amazing women who
have studied that and I value them for their contribution to the field for their
mentorship for their quality of their ideas Nelly-
Nalini Ambady Alice Eagly, Susan Fiske are just some of the people that have
really kind of drove driven the way that I thought about about biases but also a
man like Sam Gertner and Jack d'Ovidio and Galen Bowden Heusen just that I feel
like as a minority woman that I can well this is my my perspective it's probably
wrong but I can I've got a gut feeling about when it feels like something's
real or not when categorization what they propose is categorization pro-
processes and effects whether that is the way it's worked out in my life the
way it's run its course in my life and so I felt like I had this kind of
insider knowledge about what real biases was but it's probably not the case
but that helped me drive my career but really people who have have been really
thoughtful and smart and had really yeah I feel like truthful ideas or real ideas
about how how biases all play out those being the real mentors to me and you
each have sort of different levels of plan fulness over the course of your
career and I'm sure one of you can talk a little bit about that like
what led you to believe that you could do the work that you're doing now
hmm its an interesting question I didn't think I could do it yeah I didn't either
I felt like a failure so many times and still and still you know there's a
little survivor instinct and I think that many of us have that you know we
look around us and we don't want to be where some people are and I've always
wondered why some people in my circumstance made it and why other
people didn't and I've always wanted to study that but I never have because I
wanted to be an academician and I ended up being in clinical work which I learned
to love and clinical work turns out to be very similar you just guide
individuals or groups instead of guiding classes of students so it turned out to
be very similar but I I still wonder who survives and what the mechanism is for
their survival especially in the underrepresented groups you know you
mentioned that I'm still the only Asian American that has made it to the board
of directors for the APA and I think about that because this was almost 30
years ago and the ethnic minorities that I mentored on council were not Asian
there was one Asian male and then the others were not Asian the other females
were not Asian so that makes me question how the leadership encourages or
discourages Asian women from going higher in their outside public service
and it's it's sort of the dual role that you hear stereotypically of women in
the home versus women outside the home and so I I still think that this needs
to be examined more clearly I ended up on APA counsel, can I tell this story, by default
every year the nice people of Kansas which as most of you knows population
majority Caucasian would put me on the ballot for
representative to Council of Representatives and every year a white
male would win they would go to the first council meeting and come back and
say it was too much work they wouldn't want to do it so could the alternate go
well Dr. Chang you can go right? so I would take off of work and I would go
and I would do all the right things well this happened two or three times and
then people said well will you run and I said yes I'll run and I wrote
in my statement if I do not win this election
I will not go as the alternate for the state of Kansas
so the Kansas psychologists had better elect somebody that's going to represent
them I didn't quite say it that strongly but definitely that was the message and
definitely I won that election by a landslide. Following that term Month
Council of Representatives I was elected to the Board of Directors and so you
know really and truly I don't know how these things develop but they just
happen and they should happen and that's what I try to tell people in the
younger generations expect things to happen do what you need to do to go
forward and you if you have questions ask people you'll find that there are
people that don't talk and don't speak up that have gone through similar
situations. Thank you. Yeah I think I agree a hundred percent because it's the
same message I give young people is that don't plan too much you know people
these days plan I'll do this than I do that than I'll do that because life throws
you opportunities you could never have imagined and if you shut yourself out
from those then you miss big chances because my my career I did plan when I was
in college I do my PhD and be a lecturer than be a professor be married to some
young gentleman and have two children and have a scooter
maybe someday own a house many years later that was my plan right? But here I am with one child
three cars you know a house in the US never in my wildest dreams never wanted
to come to the US never thought we'd ever live here so life happens I also
thought a lot about gender inequality did my PhD on it but never thought
that would be my career it was a job opportunity that came up that I grabbed
my husband's job brought us to the u.s. it was a temporary appointment for two
years I said okay I'd take a sabbatical and come with him and then he kept
getting extended and I got restless you know I wanted to do something and I sort
of explained to people I work on women and development issues and they said
well there's one place called the International Center for research and
women you might want to go check that out
but of course in those days they hadn't heard of the place where I got my PhD
from Bangalore University they didn't know where that was they didn't know
whether I could write English well I hadn't yet published articles from my
PhD I was in the process of doing that so there were all these hurdles so I
finally joined as and I didn't have a permit to work I just had a permit to
stay in the country as a spouse and so I joined without pay as a research
assistant and had to you know had to prove myself and then ICRW
sponsored me for a work permit my husband then you know was extended one
thing led to another and believe it or not the week that he was called back to
his job in India and was the week that I CRW offered to sponsor me for a green
card and it was a fabulous job I just began the women in AIDS program and I so
wanted to do that work and my husband went back to India and said to his
bosses I can't do this to my wife a second time I can't drag her away from a
job so I'd like to get a sabbatical and they just laughed at him
you've got to be kidding we want you back here we sent you there to get
experience so that you could come back here so he resigned without telling me and
came back here and we were on one child five years old and a salary of somebody
just beginning their career so it was a struggle but as he says ever since then
he's had a job and I've had a career and he's thrilled with that. So you know it just
happens you feel it as being in the right place at the right time
but when you look back it's because you worked a particular way you had a
particular attitude you developed certain relationships those things do
count they count a lot and then of course you reach a point where you have choices
then you plan to choose one over the other but there's a large part of your
career that sometimes just happens. I'm not sure if I ever really planned this
out either I'm always interested in social justice like when I was 12 years
old I was reading books like black like me and anything I can get my hands on
in that kind of realm and psychology, social psychology because it's it's bias
at the interpersonal level mm-hmm just seem to like it really fit for me um it
all made sense to me and yeah I don't know I just it just happened right and I
just feel like I'm really lucky I can't think of a career that would that I
would enjoy more I can research what I want I can work with who I want I can
collaborate with who I want it's really exciting to work with you know graduate
students and other researchers and you know I I would do this job for free it's
it's just something that I really think is important and that I love doing and I
just I think I was just lucky yeah right but specifically about being
a journal editor like what led you to that um
research excites me it kind of drives drives my ambitions and I especially
like methodology I look at social cognitive processes
and yeah so journal editor was it was well the reason I took it because it was
because of the diversity because I really wanted I think it's important
that associate editors that we have you know a reasonable number of women half
preferably women on as associate editors and on the editorial board and ethnic
minorities and racial minorities so that's why I took on that role but I
liked the role as well I like reading about research and you know you get it
you get a hot off the press before it's even published so that's really exciting
as well and I like working with people I love working with the other associate
editors and kind of steering the field you know what's important in the field
what's not important in the field so yeah I I really enjoy it and for folks
don't who don't know what associate editors do can you just share a little
bit about what they do and why it's important that it be a diverse pool of
people yeah okay so I as editor I get in people submit manuscripts to me I
graduate students researchers and then I review some of them myself and then I
distribute some of them to the associate editors who are all have expertise in
different areas of social psychology and they asked reviewers and based on the
comments and their own perspectives on the research they decide whether it
should be published or not and so manuscripts that get published have a
big impact especially at JPS beyond people's careers so if you publish you
know a lot of papers in high quality journals then you'll have a good career
and so that's why it's so important that people who evaluate our research show
reflect the diversity in our field in terms of gender and racial and ethnic
minorities so yeah the publishing is is how we're evaluated as academics so it's
really important that that people who evaluate our our field are
how do I want to say this the people who evaluate our work understand what it is
to be a minority understand what it is to about the importance of research but
also yeah that reflect reflect who we are thank you so Dr. Rao Gupta you
talked a little bit about the negotiation with your husband or him
making a decision without consulting you for the benefit of me can can you all talk about
the balance between your personal and professional lives and how that's played
out over the course of your careers I was very clear that my daughter came
first it was a difficult thing to follow through on in a career when you were an
immigrant in in an American organization that was filled with women many whom
were in similar situations like me with a little one but it was never really
talked about that that in those days mhm
this sort of you know challenge of trying to balance the two but my
instructions to anybody who worked with me was if that phone rings and it's my
daughter and she needs me I don't care what's at this table what we're
discussing I'm leaving and it was interesting to see how over time it just
got accepted nobody questioned it beyond a point initially they were sort of
surprised and thought it was an Indian kind of thing maybe something different
but over time it actually created a culture where others could speak up and
say my child is sick I can't do this I need to get home or can I bring my kid
in and then I had the incredible privilege of being president of the
organization few years down the road and actually introduced a policy where if
your child has a slight cold and is not terribly infectious and you want to come
to work feel free to bring the child in or work from home and I
remember a colleague of mine came to me a man who said it's not fair to the
women and men who don't have children you've created a policy that benefits
some and not all I said what might keep you at home he said if my dog is sick I
said bring your dog right in we will have a pet among us and I have to tell you with
the few the children who came in nobody over used the policy they did it when
they had to but when we had pets and children in the office the stress level
dropped and everybody suddenly realized what life's priorities are what I'm
doing is not a life-or-death matter there's something else in this world
that matters and I was able to sort of instill that in the organization for as
long as I ran it now in UNICEF which is a hard-driving organization for children
the work culture is very different it's very much because you take public money
to do good for people around the world people really really work around the
clock especially when they're dealing with humanitarian work and often
sacrifice their families because even the rotation policy you have to be
abroad you leave your family behind so I tried with the UNICEF as as a senior
manager to try and influence some of those policies but this is a challenge
for organizations all around the world is how do you allow how should life be
more important than work and work be just a subsection of life is something
that organizations haven't quite fully figured out and I you know I've we've
all managed the best way we could right me remember driving down the Beltway or
395 and 6 in the evening rushing to get your child from daycare mm-hmm it's a
terrifying feeling that you're not going to get there in time you're going to be
charged $15 a minute
it's it is terrifying I'm I'm very empathetic to young mothers or young
fathers who are trying to cope with all of that simultaneously and then the
eldercare mm-hmm I went through that as well I had my parents who lived with me
my mother-in-law lived with me my mother-in-law and my mother had dementia
one had Alzheimer's one had another form of dementia and that's the stressful time
too it's extremely stressful to try and manage that so just be kind to each
other is what I say to people all the time be kind there's a life outside of
work wonderful view Dr. Kawikami um I think being an academic is great
because you get the flexibility you can set your own hours outside of the
teaching so that's really nice so I have two I've 18 year old and a 20 year old
son and so I was able to go to all their important events but being an academic
you're also expected to put in a lot of hours and I just don't think I was ever
really good thinking reducing the stress and and making that nice balance between
work and and life yeah it still is a problem for me I think I would I would
really like that I could put more emphasis on my personal life and less
on my work but I'm not able to do that right but yeah that's a that's a real
problem for me and I yeah one that that I would love to be able to resolve in
better ways yeah
well I buried myself in my work because the only thing I knew was to work and to
go to school and do research and so that's what I did most of my life and
then I got sick and so when I got cancer just about the time I was elected to the
Board of Directors so um actually the Board of Directors became my family I
was going to resign that position just after I got elected because I got the
diagnosis the week after I got elected and people said don't resign that
position you don't have a support system because and this is what they said to me
all you know how to do is work and now you're going to be sick and you're gonna
have to heal so you better stay on the board of directors and do your public
service and pay back to psychology and that was the best advice that I could
have gotten at that time so I worked and I developed in public service and I also
learned about social networking I in our family and in my child raising I didn't
know anything about social networking or what you did or what was required I
didn't know even know how to dress you know I just knew that you go to work you
do a good job no matter what work you're doing
I wrapped packages at Robinson's Beverly Hills for eight years while I was
working and going to school and I just know how to go to work and I knew that
because I was single if anybody else needed anything like if your child was
sick or you know your husband needed you'd go pick them up I was the one that
was going to take over and do the job and so it was a very very different but
it seems like we all sort of gotten the same place not exactly knowing what our
row is but exactly knowing how to be successful you know by keeping our
options open mm-hmm so you know I really appreciate that mm-hmm Can I comment on the
clothes piece because it brought back a memory that I was recently talking to
colleagues about you know as an immigrant from another country
to the US when you join the world of work now I realize how you dress at work
how important that is for your status at work for your opportunities at work and
when I first came to this country I had no idea that in a department store like
Macy's there's a difference between the Misses section and the women's section
and I would shop at the women's section I was a woman I shopped at the women's
section where women's section was for older women and the clothes I would
buy I never wore dresses I used to wear pants in India but never dresses and I
sort of felt compelled to look like everybody else at work even though I had
been hair up to my hips that I wanted long bond I had no stud which now is
popular but wasn't then and and wore these frumpy clothes with bows and you know
lots of layers and I thought I was in the dress and it was amazing how kind my
colleagues were because when I look at those photographs I cannot believe I went to work like thatand nobody said
anything and I recall a senior woman who was a fellow in the office
staging I'm sure she staged it this didn't just happen her hanging around
she was a very wealthy woman but she was dressed impeccably hanging around in the
copy room you know in the Xerox room while I was relaxing something looking
through a catalog the women will understand this of Chadwicks she never
bought clothes in Chadwicks looking through that catalog and saying to me "look at that, wouldn't that look good on you" and I for the first time discovered catalog
shopping I didn't know that existed and looked at it with you and said you're
right and that's how she taught me how to dress or the day before a big
conference when I was supposed to be on stage or my boss as I was leaving the
office said you'll been in a suit tomorrow right and I panicked I went home and
said to my husband move to buy a suit and went to the mall into the store
called casual corner where there was an african-american woman who could tell I
had no blood in my face and said to me can I help you and I said I need a suit
I've never worn one I don't know how to buy one I don't know what should look
like on me she said you just wait here hunny I'm gonna help you
and she kitted me out in the suit with the shell and everything on and then I
said what about my feet what do I wear on my legs and she said pantyhose and
shoes I said which kind she said just wait right here at 7:30 in the evening she
went running down the mall bought me my shoes bought me my panty hose kitted me
out I wore the same outfit for two days in a row at the conference I just raised
this because they hurdles as women yeah that we face in career building mm-hmm
people don't talk about and it's just very tough when you come from another
country and it stands in the way it does you don't get taken seriously if you
don't look right it may be different now it certainly wasn't then no my boss
I was doing a work-study job and my boss said to me where did you get that I said
at the church down the road and she said have you ever been in a department store
this was when I was still a student but I was were doing work-study right and I
said no she said well so and so will take you and I didn't have the heart to
say well I don't have the money to to go and buy anything so so so and so took me
and we went and looked and she showed me the kinds of things that maybe I would
look nicer in at work so I went to the next rummage sale you know that's what they
call garage sales now but they were rummage sales in the olden days and I
went to the next church rummage sale and found more appropriate clothes but you
know you really don't know if you're not exposed to that and my my parents you
know they were immigrants so they didn't know so it is a big deal yeah and and
can you all talk about some of the other challenges you faced with as women of
Asian descent or and women who are immigrants
well one of the things that happens is that you're not worth very much like we
were we were the only Asian family well there was one Japanese Asian family that
was farmers in Las Cruces New Mexico where I was raised my father finally got
an immigrant professors job at New Mexico State University that means they
got paid one-quarter the salary of the US citizen professors even though my
father got his degree from Cal Berkeley so what one of the things that happens
is you get called names like yellow all the time and you know that was the time
of the internment camps just after the internment camps and so one of the
hurdles is a big hurdle was learning how to speak without an accent we would sit
on the bed every night and listen to the radio and listen to somebody in this
city someplace called San Francisco and we would listen to that person talk and
then we would get books and we would open them and we would read them so most
people know that I don't have very much of an accent and it's because in my
childhood we were taught not to have an accent of any kind we couldn't have a
Mexican accent because my father was a bit biased against Mexicans so he didn't
want us to have a Mexican accent they definitely didn't want us to have a
Chinese squeaky voice accent because they would be recognized and then we
would have to you know maybe go to internment camp even though we were
Chinese and so the only option we had was to learn to speak like the admired
people on the radio so we learned to speak that way you know it reminds me of
an incident when somebody in in a department store but when I was shopping
with my husband's said to me what's that accent and he turned
around and said she has an Indian accent you have an American accent both are
both are accents but people don't think that way they think you have the
accent and we speak right mm-hmm and so you know it took a lot to get used to
the American accent I remember going to McDonald's and being asked given 20
choices do you want I said want an egg and toast and there were 16 different
ways in which egg was served and 20 to few ways of different types of bread
sandwiches and not sandwiches and I started crying because one I couldn't
understand what she was saying and second it was just overwhelming and
then when I said to her I don't understand can you slow down she said
what are you saying what'd you say she just couldn't
understand me and she said why didn't you speak in English and I said but I am
and I finally left because I just couldn't get myself understood and
there's also the usage you know words yeah sure words are different taking my
daughter to a Halloween parade when I was new to the country my first thing
out my foray out into the community I dressed her up in the costume and
everything and called the office of the apartment complex to say is the where is
the parade mm-hmm and she said didn't you I said something about the circular
I said I read the circular because notices what in this country called
notices in India we used to call circulars and I said I read the circular
and she said it's not in the SEPA ma'am it's in the square and we went back and
forth like that totally misunderstanding each other I
never took my daughter to the Halloween parade so there are those hurdles
theres the sexism mm-hmm there's plenty of that and and it's it's subtle I
experienced it in subtle forms so in meetings the first meeting I came home
and said some senior economists from the World Bank said what I said was
interesting isn't that great my husband said no honey interesting is
used very differently in this country that's right that's interesting is a way
to shut you up odten laughing mm-hmm and then I began to notice that you say
something they say that's interesting and then nothing else is said and all of
a sudden everybody's discussing that point and you feel invisible yeah that
you feel you're sitting there feeling totally invisible so I had to teach
myself to interrupt at that point and say that's what I just said
and you're right and then take the discussion forward but it takes courage
to do that well it is not easy and I got told I said to somebody I was on the
board of directors and I said to somebody didn't I just say what Dr.
so-and-so said and he he whispered to me he says yeah he says it's the girly
thing it's a very prominent psychologist so I'm not gonna use names so this was
in 1995 so we're not talking really ancient history but yeah he's doing the
girly thing it's okay I would have been in UCLA doing my PhD in psychology if it
weren't for sexism in India because I didn't have the money to pay for the tuition
or the travel my parents had enough money for a one-way ticket and I was too
scared to do the Hat and land here with no money to be my tuition so I applied
to a rotary scholarship and this day I got into the final round and I was the
one of two they had to make a choice between two and the other was the
gentleman who was studying civil engineering abroad and we went for the
interview we were both in the waiting room he was called in first and then I
was called in and they were panel four men all businessman and the questions
were do you plan to get married then I was stunned and I said yes what are you
going abroad to do again I said clinical psychology and they said
so and then you'd come back and get married and why would that be a good
investment for us and then they just bluntly told me the other candidate will
probably get it because he is going to come back and build bridges
and you're just gonna come back and raise a family and so I was actually
denied that scholarship and developed such an anger about it that I swore I
would do my entire education in India never go abroad took it all out in the
wrong way and then over the course of many years realized that that kind of
sexism holds so many women back you know this wasn't an isolated incident as it happens in the United
States all the time some of the research I do looks at confronting racism and
sexism and so I do these experiments in which I get people to imagine themselves
being in a context in which someone says something really racist and everybody
when they're imagining at things oh I'm gonna stand up I'm gonna confront the
person but when you actually put them in that context almost no one does right
and people expect women when they see sexism to step up but when they do
they're evaluated very negatively I mean it it has an impact I mean it's
important to do I'm not saying don't do it but there's a huge backlash against
women who actually confront and so one of the really nice things about my lab
is I have a lab in which I have you know really diverse students I've Muslims and
blacks and Asians and it's almost a safe space where we can sit and complain to
each other about you know even minor abuses right not being taken seriously
not being heard to fairly extreme cases where they're not getting jobs and so
you know that's that's somewhere where I feel that's probably one of the most one
of the things I'm most proud of stuff that they can come here and feel like
they're comfortable enough that they won't be evaluated negatively that they
can talk about their really some of the really negative impacts of being a
minority so yeah so our time has gone really fast I've one more question I'd
like to ask and then to invite you all to ask questions of our panelists so to
that question is what do you think of is in psychologies future like how do you
see what do you see the important challenges being over the next 10 to 15
years for the field or for psychologists out out of the pure psychology sort of
field so it's difficult to say but I'll tell you the behavioral sciences and
psychology in particular was invaluable to developing prevention strategies for
HIV and as I discovered developing prevention and treatment work for Ebola
when I was in UNICEF so understanding the the psychology and the sociology of
communities and getting community engagement in a sense of ownership over
solutions that require behavior change is so important that the folks who think
they're doing medicine don't often recognize, right, so getting the
public health field that is packed with doctors to understand that there's
behavioral element to this and there's a social normative element to this that
needs a deeper understanding of what holds behaviors in place and it's not
just admonishing individuals, "wear a condom",
mm-hmm first I'm a woman I don't wear a condom, secondly I don't have any leverage over my man, mm-hmm, to tell
him to use a condom so it's those those insights that seem so clear to me so
apparent given the training I had, right, that were totally absent in the
conversations that idea and I was struck because I used to always feel a bit of a fraud
being in public health you I don't have a public health degree why am I in Public
Health and then I recognized I have something so valuable to offer public
health and it's the psychology training so how can psychology then as a field
begin to recognize its applications in all of these different other fields is
what I would say you know moving forward and that for students to be able to
recognize that you can make a contribution by um
stepping into those other fields and taking your skillsets there. Yeah you
know psychology is the number one major at most universities now and it's
because psychology and the study of human behavior can be so versatile in so
many different areas; business, science per, se management, my area was medical
psychology and I started a lot of that in the Midwest where I forced the
interns to develop liaisons with the medical people even though the medical
people didn't want us to the point where I was at an international conference on
gastric bypass surgery that everybody worldwide was calling me and asking me
what I had told the surgeon that I was working with because the surgeon
announced in the conference, and I was there, developing talking about
psychological aspects of medical chronic illness and medical addiction and so on
and so forth and he only made one statement about me he said I'm glad the
day I met Dr. Chang at the Medical Center because the day we developed
working together my telephone stopped ringing. That's really big for psychology
because psychologists know how to communicate with human beings, that's not
necessarily something that's stressed in other fields so psychology basically
because of the communications and the understanding of the behavior and that
they can communicate that sort of understanding to other people because of
that it's going to be the foremost, most needed area it's just that the students
that are up-and-coming have to be innovative they have to be
flexible and they have to keep their eyes open awareness and if they do that
there's always going to be room for them and ah major job opportunities and also
in major personal relationships. I think psychology is going to change in
two different ways from from what it is now I think the way we do research is
changing the way we can... conduct research what we think are good research
practices are really going through a kind of a huge evolution right now and
the way that we write it up and publish it. And so that that's going to be I
think a really big change in the future and psychology is driving those kind of
research practices beyond even psychology into medical science and a
lot of different areas. And second I think that there going to be a lot more
women in the field, there are many more women now in undergraduate programs and
going into graduate school and even in early careers, associate assistant
professor,s associate professor. So I think women are just going to take much
more of a leadership role and have much more impact on the field in the future
which I see is a very positive thing. Just one of the things we worry about
and that happening is what Dorothy Kanter used to talk about is the
feminization of psychology, so one of the messages that we have to give women is
not to let that happen because the feminization of psychology means that
the importance goes decreases and we want the importance to increase and also
we do not want the salary levels and the appreciation of management and so on and
so forth to decrease as stereotypically things decrease when women enter the
workforce and all of us can attest to that no matter what area that we work in.
So that's something that we really have to be aware of so well I'm pleased to
bring to your attention that last year we produced a report called the changing
gender composition of psychology that's tracking those
numbers and with some recommendations on how to buttress that effect yeah and
then just to follow up Dr. Kawakami can you talk a little bit about how you see
research changing or public publishing changing I think about the last ten
years or so they're realizing that a lot of a lot of research both in medical
science and psychology and a lot of other fields is not being replicated
it's not replicable right so there have a hard time replicating the findings
that are in some of our journals and so they're changing the way that we do
science you know they're part how many participants we have who the
participants are the quality of the statistics and there are a lot of really
major changes going on in research right now and the way that we're just more
transparent and reporting our research right and we're reporting studies that
do work and that don't work so that we know what the full outcome is of the
research that's been carried out and yeah just a lot of really important
interesting pathways forward that we're still trying to figure out right now I
think we're right I don't even know if we're in the middle we're right at the
beginning I think of this a whole new evolution in research okay thank you
thank you Dr. Chang Dr. Rao Gupta Dr. 1200 00:54:01,860 --> 00:54:07,290 Kawakami I know that you all probably
have additional questions as we close the panel and thank our guests I just
want to let you know that we'll take the panelists outside and you can greet them
in the multi-purpose area after we close down the presentation so join me in
thanking our panelists [Applause]
[Music] [Applause]
[Music] [Applause]
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