- Hey everybody, what's up, I'm Chase.
Welcome to another episode
of The Chase Jarvis Live Show, here on CreativeLive.
You all know this show.
This is where I sit down with amazing humans
and I do everything I can to unlock their brains
to help you live your dreams
in career and hobby and in life.
My guest today started out on the other side
of the camera as a fashion icon,
moved to becoming one of the world's
top fashion photographers,
then landed this random deal as a photographer
and judge on America's Top Model.
Not random at all.
All these things happen for a reason.
And today he's a thriving entrepreneur.
My guest today is none other than Mr. Nigel Barker.
(upbeat electronic music)
(audience applauding)
- They love you!
- Welcome to the show, bud. - Thanks, buddy.
- Been a long time comin', good to have you.
- Oh, I appreciate it.
(Chase laughs)
- I'm just gonna start off by sayin' the obvious.
We're dressed the same.
- (laughing) No, let's be fair, you're dressed like me.
- Yes, that's true, because you--
(Nigel laughs)
In the classic sense, I wore it better,
and if you're listening to this right now--
- Did you hear that? - Some people are watching,
'cause you can watch this show,
but a lot of people I think predominantly listen, and...
Like, we have the same frickin' pants,
and the shoes are slightly different, but only slightly.
- You know... (Chase laughs)
It's kinda scary.
I'm not sure exactly what's going on,
except for the fact that they are very comfortable.
- They are, this is why I wear them.
My wife's like, "Oh, you're wearin' sweatpants again today."
'Cause they're glorified sweatpants.
Anyway.
- My wife likes to say, "Oh, you think you're a soldier."
Like, "Come on, soldier boy."
And she takes the micky out of me, so.
Hey, you know, maybe that's what it is.
- We're wearin' it, we're wearin' camo,
and it's not the best way to start a show,
I'm not gonna lie, but I couldn't,
for those people who are watching, like,
"Wait a minute, they wore a uniform on the show?"
So-- - It's true.
- We also have a very similar career path,
except you were a sort of classic model,
I was an athlete, so spent a lot of time
on the other side of the camera.
- I can see the guns.
- Then we transitioned to photographers,
and now sort of photographers plus entrepreneurs.
So, that was no way an attempt to summarize the last
30 years of your life-- - Pretty good.
- But in Nigel Barker's own words,
how in the hell did you get to sittin' right here?
Gimme the short version of the 30-year arc of your career.
- I mean I think at the end of the day,
it was about, one, believing in myself,
and also, having a dream, right?
Dreaming about moving from England
and seeing the world, originally traveling.
And you know, I grew up doing a bit of travel.
I was always fascinated with it.
And I think when I first started modeling,
and I never wanted to model,
it was not a dream of mine actually.
I kind of fell into it.
Ironically, a show called The Clothes Show in England,
which was one of the very first
modeling competitions, in the '80s, right?
- (chuckling) Wow.
- And I didn't win, and I got
a top three, and someone said to me,
"Oh, would you like a modeling contract?"
And I thought, OK, my year off between high school
and college, I would do a bit of modeling.
- Gap year. - Gap year, yeah.
- Exactly.
- There we go, proper British term.
- Proper British term.
I was trying to Americanize it for you.
But you know, I did a bit of modeling.
It went well, and the first thing
that really struck me was just how interesting
people in fashion are, right? (chuckling)
I'd come from a very straight-laced,
boarding school, private school,
English education system, you know,
all-boys schools and things like that.
And all of a sudden, I was in the fashion world.
And there were all kinds of characters.
It was almost like, this is where all the people,
the fashionistas, the misfits, the odd bunch,
everyone comes together, and they're in this business.
And I loved it.
I'm like, "I've finally found home," in a weird way.
- Yeah, your tribe.
- You know, it was like, it was my tribe,
and there were people who, you know,
who'd been told they couldn't do this,
or they shouldn't do that, you don't fit in.
And you know, I just loved the creativity.
People making stuff happen, and you know,
and I loved it, and I didn't leave.
My parents got very upset with me.
(giggling)
Careful, parents, what you tell your kids they can do,
'cause it was my mum that got me involved
in this modeling malarkey in the first place,
and it led to sort of six years,
me not going to medical school, and becoming a photographer.
Because after six years, I said '80s,
right, so in the '80s, it was all
about the sort of era of the supermodel.
There were curvaceous models, there were these Amazonians,
you know, Claudia Schiffer,
Christy Turlington, Naomi Campbell.
And then came along heroin chic,
androgyny, Kate Moss, designers,
you know, like Anna Sui, Marc Jacobs.
It was a very different time.
And I'm not a small guy.
- Yeah, you're very, yeah--
- I wasn't about to become (chuckling) like,
you know, I played rugby, and I rode.
I wasn't about to become androgenous.
So, I didn't wanna throw away everything I'd ever done,
the past six years, my other degree.
And I had always loved photography.
And it wasn't until I became a model that I realized
that photography was even a career choice.
There was not university degrees
in photography back when we were kids.
That was new, it was interns and assisting.
So you know, and I started to transition over,
and I could see the industry was changing,
and I took that opportunity to not
throw away what I had learned.
And I also found and saw photographers
similar to yourself, but you know, when I was younger,
who I could see weren't just doing photography,
but were turning it into a business.
Photographers like Fabrizio Ferreri,
who started Superstudios in Milan,
who then opened Industria Superstudios in New York.
And had a studio business as well as photography business.
He then started a fashion business
called Ferreri, which was his clothing line.
He then had an airline, he bought an island.
(laughing)
I'm like, this is a photographer!
Right, I'm like, "OK."
Like, this is not what you think
when you think photographer.
- For sure.
- A guy called Peter Arnell, who bought all the billboards
down Houston Street in New York City.
And if anyone wanted to advertise in New York City,
between Soho and Chelsea, on Houston Street,
you had to use him or his advertising company
to shoot the advertising campaigns.
It was brilliant. - Brilliant.
- And I'm like, these are different ways of marketing
and branding and doing business within photography.
And so I was inspired by these men and these women
who were doing these sorts of things.
And I tried to put that into my business.
And I remember when Top Model came knocking.
Tyra had done one season, I wasn't there for season one.
It was on a small network called UPN,
which doesn't even exist anymore.
And it was a bit of a cult show.
Wasn't a huge hit, but it was,
you know, done quite well, season one.
And she came and said, "Oh, would you,"
you know, "be interested in doing
"a photo shoot for next season?"
And I thought, "OK, why not, it's a bit fun,"
and you know, reality TV was new,
if you can believe it. (chuckling)
This is back in 2003.
And they actually put everyone on tape back then.
And I was on tape, and I think it was partly
my British accent, because by all accounts,
(laughing)
you know, every reality show cocktail
has a dash of English in it, you know.
And they liked the way I critiqued
the models and what have you.
And I got a call a month later.
I didn't think I'd got it, 'cause it was a month later.
And they said, "Look," you know, "we've looked at your tape,
"we like what you do, we'd like you on the show.
"But would you consider a more permanent role?
"As a permanent judge and a photographer?"
And I didn't really know what that meant,
but I did know that it was a bit of a risk.
And you think now, well, what's the risk?
Because obviously, I did well out of it,
and it's a part of my calling card, you know.
But it was a risk, because when you work in fashion,
especially back then, high fashion and couture
and that world that I was in, and editorial photography,
being on prime time, being sort of a bit
of a sellout perhaps, and commercializing yourself,
opening the doors of this exclusive
fashion club to the world,
was not a popular things with people.
They were like, "Don't make a mockery of what we do.
"We're not prime time."
You know, and I knew that that was that risk.
And people warned me.
But I also thought, and I could feel it,
that times were changing, and I think being in touch
with the zeitgeist of the time is very important.
And I could see that people loved these kinds of shows.
And I'm like, "You know what, sod it.
"This is a part of pop culture,
"and I wanna be a part of it."
And I enjoyed that kind of feeling.
And so I took the risk, and one season,
for me, led to 18 seasons that I did.
Became the number-one show
on prime time on a Wednesday night.
We syndicated to 156 countries around the world,
and had a weekly viewership of
over 100 million people watching our show.
We were the number-one television
export out of the US for several years,
beating both Baywatch and Sesame Street.
- Ooh. - Sorry, Grover.
(laughing)
- (laughing) But you know, it was something, you know.
- Yeah, it's real.
- And it was real, it became a real deal.
And there was a whole generation
of fashionistas and young photographers who grew up,
who, you know, saw what we did on that show
and were inspired to take up the camera.
You know, who knew that I would be here,
you know, like 20 years later,
and now everybody has a camera on their phone,
and they're all fascinated with the world of photography.
- I think that your story is fascinating
because of all of the little decisions that you had to make.
Like that you wanted to move from modeling into photography.
That when photography was happening,
you realized that it was changing.
And then when it was changing, you decided actively
that you were going to risk the thing
that was the surer, which is being a part
of this fashion community, with the unknown.
So there's just a series of probably,
you know, 20 decisions that have shaped your career.
So if I'm gonna go back and tap into a couple
of those little anecdotes along the way...
What was it about being a model that you feel like
helped you be a better photographer?
- So, it's funny, you know, I actually didn't like modeling.
And (chuckling) it's ironic, because I'm constantly
talking to people about becoming models,
and helping them be models, and things.
But I really just didn't love it.
I kind of always felt awkward.
- Because it was boring?
There's a lot of standing around if you don't know.
- Yeah, it was a bit of standing around,
no, that wasn't the main reason.
I actually felt a little silly, to be honest.
I'll be real straight up with you.
I just felt uncomfortable.
And maybe it's the control in me.
I am quite controlling. (chuckles)
Probably very controlling, if I talk to some people.
But you know, and so, when you're
not in control of your life,
and you're at the whim of someone else
telling you what to do or the whim
of someone else booking you or hiring you,
that doesn't make me feel comfortable.
And I didn't like just being arm candy,
and to be honest, the fashion industry for men,
male models, you are not the lead.
You're always the sort of secondary.
You're hired as a prop, you know.
So it just wasn't fulfilling for me.
But I did love the role that the photographer had,
or the creative director had, or the editor
in chief had, you know, the designer had.
And I'm like, "Well, which one of these can I do?
"Where is my potential here?"
And I saw the photographers, and I remember as a model,
what I learned, specifically, was watching how
all these different photographers I worked with,
hundreds over the years, and some of the biggest names
in the business, how they treated me, how they talked to me,
how they treated the people on their set,
their team, how they worked a job, you know.
And their finesse or their charm or their lack of it,
you know, and whether they got booked again,
or whether I got booked again, the way they lit their sets.
You know, to every aspect of it.
You know, the whole production, and not just
from one photographer that I could have assisted,
but sort of several hundred.
And it was very interesting, the reaction.
And certain photographers, what they got out of me
because of the way they talked to me.
And I incorporated that into my style.
- Insanely valuable.
That's like a crash course that you
cannot possibly build on purpose.
That has to happen from your deconstructing
the best successes of every set
that you've ever been on, right?
- You know, I do some quirky things,
there's no doubt, as a photographer now.
And I'm not apologetic about it.
Some people even laugh at me, or I know have spoken
to my assistants and said, "Does he always do that?"
You know.
And they're like, "Yes, he does.
"But he has a reason for it."
And you know, it's just, "Let him do his thing."
Because ultimately, there isn't one route
to getting the job done, you know.
You can all do it your own different ways,
and if you create something that is beautiful
and it's authentic and it moves you,
and it, you know, arrests people when they
see an image, then you've done your job.
How you got there is kind of up to you.
- Totally, the thing that's locked right here,
this is the thing, how you got there--
- Like a chef, I mean, how many ways can you
cook something, but there are different ways,
and it can taste different, but it can still
potentially be the same thing, right?
So you know, I do things like,
and it's from my modeling days.
I always get into my own lights, and I feel the light,
I stand where the model is, and I really
kind of embrace what that feels like.
I also look and see, what is the model looking at?
You know, 'cause I'm looking at them, they look gorgeous.
And they're on a beautiful background,
'cause this is my scenery.
And I'm like, "Oh, everything's stunning!
"Why isn't this working?"
And you look for what they're looking at,
and half the time, first of all they're lookin' at me.
Which isn't always that great.
(chuckling) And then second of all, they're looking
at a whole team of people starin' at them,
picking them apart, you know.
And it could be a parking lot, or you know,
it might not be what I'm looking at.
So you know, you really require them to be actors.
But they're not actors.
So therefore you have to motivate them.
And so there are all these sorts of things
that I start to think about and I try to involve.
And so there's a simpatico kind of thing,
I empathize with them, and I'm like,
"OK, let me put myself in your shoes."
- So powerful.
- You know, we all have our own quirks,
and you know, some people never do that.
I know there are photographers who would
never be photographed or don't like it.
But I'm like, "If I'm gonna do it to you,
"I've gotta be OK having it done to me."
- Well, I think that works for probably
lots of careers and lots of ways and angles.
But I think that specifically, and we share this,
you don't know this about me yet, but to me,
I have a very short modeling career.
Mostly in sports, on the other side of the camera.
But one of the obsessions that I have is like a tidy set.
- I could tell, by the way. - OK.
- I could tell by the way you walked.
- What?
- That you used to have a modeling background. (cackling)
You know, they all think they can hide it.
- Ah. - But I can always tell.
- Short, short stint. (Nigel laughs)
But we all have the things that, what I loved is that
you're not apologetic about it, like, this is the thing.
And it is what you learn, you know,
on both sides of the cameras, being on hundreds of sets,
is that how you get there becomes your thing.
And the fact that you're empathetic for the model
might create or draw out of them something
that some other photographer can't get.
This is about as messy as I'll let my set get right here,
this bag over there, and there's a couple of--
- I'm the same way.
- Yeah, because to me, when I look at just
stuff strewn all over the place, it creates anxiety.
So we'll hide it in a different place.
Just, I want everyone to feel like this is a space
that feels good when you're into it.
And sure, this photograph needs to look good,
but the whole place has to feel good.
- Oh, yeah, no, I have OCD I think.
I mean it comes down to like, my assistants know
that the wires on the ground, the cables leading
away from my lights, have to be in lines that are angled.
(Chase laughs) And they have to be taped down.
- Talk about the camera operators here.
- So it's-- - Yes, they're laughing.
They're laughing, because it's true.
- I can see that.
And when I take pictures, and this is me,
and there's other photographers
out there, I'm not hating on you.
But I'm not a big fan of like,
people shooting on the beach when the ocean
is going like that in the background.
I'm like, "What happened, is there an earthquake?
"Did you fall when you took this picture?"
(Chase laughs)
That's just me, OK, my horizons are all damn straight.
I'm all about symmetry, and other people
love those pictures, so it's again,
beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
It just drives me nuts. (chuckles)
- Well, we are similar in that.
I like the fact that you, I think empathy is a word
that is long overdue, and there's a realization
in our culture that empathy, I think it's gonna
really help us in the next chapter of culture.
Because understanding how someone else
feels is part of the human equation.
So the fact that you've been on this side
of the camera before you became a photographer.
But now I wanna shift gears and talk
about how in particular did, what was your first step
or series of steps, when you're like,
"OK, I wanna go do that, I wanna do what
"that guy or that girl is doin' right there?"
'Cause you mentioned, it's not really
happening in a four-year degree.
Nowadays, there are things like
CreativeLive that didn't exist.
So what did you do, and then what
would you recommend for others?
And just to be clear, this goes beyond photography.
We're talking about photography because that's
Nigel's background, that's mine as well.
But similar is probably true in a lot of things.
- I had to use what was available,
I think is the reality of the matter.
And I was lucky, too, because I was modeling at the time.
And so I looked around everyone I was
working with, and they were models, right?
So there I had this sort of army of,
you know, good-looking, attractive people
who are in the business, who want to be photographed.
And one of the hard things most photographers
face is, "Well, who do I photograph?
"I don't know any models."
- My friend Joey-- - Right, my friend,
"Would you let me take your picture?"
So, that was my paradigm.
I was living in Milan, and I actually lived
in a building that had hundreds of models living in it.
And every day, they would come back from work,
if they had a job, which most of them didn't.
And you know, I would say to them,
"Please don't wipe your makeup off.
"Leave your hair the way the professionals have done it.
"And we will do portraits,
"and I will give you the pictures."
'Cause half the time, you didn't get
the pictures of your jobs, or they might be
six months later and the model's already returned
to the US, the Italian tear sheet, and you hope
you get the magazine somewhere where you live
in Ohio, or something. (Chase laughs)
And you're just not gonna get it.
So I'm like, "Let me at least take a portrait of you."
So they all loved it.
So they would come in, and I gotta say
that most of my original portraits
I think were nudes of most people,
because I didn't have any clothes.
(Chase laughs) They don't let you walk home,
unless the model steals the clothes, you know,
she doesn't come home with the clothing.
But she does have the hair and the makeup on.
So, they're like, "OK," and I have these
great portraits of these beautiful girls,
including my wife and my sister-in-law
who I met back then, 25 years ago in Milan.
And every day they'd have different hair and makeup,
and we would create these great shots in Milan,
with beautiful lighting, and these old Italian streets.
Very, very simple, black and white mostly.
And I was just honing my eye.
So that's how that aspect of it
started, I built up a portfolio.
And I think I figured out, I photographed
almost 1,000 models in the first two years.
So I had a huge body of work, very consistent,
'cause it was all very similar
scenarios, style, lighting, feel.
And of course that's important too, 'cause you know--
- Signature. - Yes.
You know, people like to know when they
book you, what're they gonna get?
You know, and of course it doesn't mean
you can't do something else, but it does
freak people out when they see 100 things,
and they're like, "Ooh, which one are we gonna get today?"
You know, so that was where I started.
And I've always called things now, for whatever reason,
I call them series, a series.
And it's a sort of a series, an element of my career
that's a style that I shot, a look and a feel.
And it changed when I moved to Paris,
'cause the light was different,
and the people were different, and the models
were different, it was all a bit more chic and chichi.
The Italians, in Italy, everyone who goes there,
they're all rough and ready and sort of sexy.
And Paris is more upscale and, you know,
the models started wearing clothes.
(both laugh)
And you know, got to England and everyone was
skinny and odd-looking, and I went down that road.
And I moved to the States, and it's when I moved
to America that I took the risk on myself,
I stopped modeling completely, I decided to become
the photographer, I was reinventing myself.
No one really knew me over there.
I'd only done a very little bit of modeling five years ago.
And I went to the meatpacking district,
which in hindsight was brilliant, but then was--
- Scary. - Terrifying.
(chuckling) The only reason why I went was
'cause it was the only place I could afford to go.
You know, and I remember when I first
started looking for an apartment,
I looked in The Village Voice, I saw, you know,
an opportunity of an apartment I could be a roommate in,
and I went and knocked on the door,
and it was right there on 14th and 9th.
And I opened the door, and towering above me
in suspender belts and heels was this lady who said,
"Hi, are you Nigel come to see your room?"
And I was like, "Uh, yes, please,
"can I have a look at my room?"
And I was this young man, and she walked me in,
and she pulls open this curtain, above the bed,
and the bed was just a bed with a curtain around it.
With handcuffs hanging from the bed top.
And I'm like, "Oh, wow." (Chase laughs)
"That'll be your room."
And I was like, "OK, um."
Well, the funny thing is that I ended up staying.
And I (laughs)-- - No warning signs here.
- No warning signs here, right.
But living in the fashion industry,
I'm like, "OK, I can deal with this,
"this is cool, let's rock this world."
And I got a studio, which was like
a 4,000-square-foot studio.
And you know, models used to show up,
there was an active meatpacking plant at the bottom.
And they would look, and they would say,
"Oh, hi, I'm here to see Nigel Barker for a shoot.
"I think I'm at the wrong place.
"I must have the wrong number."
And I would look out the window, and I'd see them,
and I'm like, "No no, you're here.
"Climb over the carcass. (Chase laughs)
"Come up to the third floor, and don't worry
"about the speakeasy on the second floor
"or the club called Hell that's in the basement."
(Chase laughs) "I'm up there."
And that's how my career started.
And you know, by having that space,
which was a risk 'cause it cost me money
to have a studio space, but it also allowed me,
you know, to shoot whenever I want.
And I loved the Andy Warhol factory concept.
- Of course, same, big inspiration for me, yeah.
- Just being able to have whatever you want,
whenever, do whatever you want,
and create whatever you want
at any time of the day and night.
I'd throw parties, everyone would come,
and then by 2:00 in the morning, everyone would be
in the mood to get their photograph taken.
We'd set up the lights, we'd wheel them out,
people would be doing all kinds
of crazy stuff, you start shooting them.
And the parties became well-known in New York City,
and that was really how I started.
It was a lot of fun, those days.
- Brilliant.
So, there's this very clear transition
from model to photographer.
You've already shared the story of going
from photographer to getting the call
that day, America's Top Model.
But we haven't really talked
about the trajectory of the show.
So you came on after shooting,
being a photographer, in an episode.
And then you went like full-on, being a regular on a show.
How was it in like, you know,
the sausage factory of making television?
It's very different in real life
when you're on set every day, versus what gets
manufactured and shown to the world.
So give me a little bit of a arc of sort of
what was going on in your mind, and on the show,
and how was it in real life relative
to what was being put out on the telly?
- You know, it was very exciting, to be honest.
It was an exciting time all around.
Television was still obviously very popular.
Now it's very different, it's changed enormously,
how people are receiving their content.
But the day-to-day was a lot of fun, you know.
We really were creating...
Making people's dreams come true,
I think is the way to describe it.
A lot of people were interested in the fashion industry,
they had been forever, and this was the very first
time people were being allowed into it.
And I did feel very responsible for the contestants.
You know, this was their dream, and they were there
and they were willing to try anything.
And you know, you felt responsible for them.
You know, I always sort of joke that I was
sort of loco parentis, which means I was basically
their parent or guardian on set.
And I always had that feeling for them.
I think, too, because I used to be one of them.
And so I looked at them and I felt so fragile for them,
I'm like, "We've gotta make sure this is
"a good experience and that you grow from it."
And I do believe that's partly why I was
the longest-standing judge on the show.
I mean, I was there for 18-odd seasons,
and I saw many other people come and go.
And interestingly enough, from a business standpoint,
the show, and that risk I talked about earlier,
how it was a risk going on Top Model.
The magazine sponsor was Jane magazine,
and then Nylon, and then it became Seventeen.
The main sponsor for the actual show was
things like Walmart, and it then moved to CoverGirl.
But they were very commercial,
they were very, it was not high fashion.
- Very mass media. - Very mass.
And you know, before that, I was working
for Paper Magazine, I'd done stuff for Interview Magazine,
and I was doing all this sort of cool stuff.
You know, great fashion houses were
calling me and asking me to do shoots.
And then they stopped.
They stopped calling. (snaps fingers)
Just like that.
And I was like, "Ooh, OK, ouch.
"So now what?
"How do I monetize what I'm doing?
"How do I turn this into an actual opportunity?"
And of course, I realized that what I was doing was,
I was bringing fashion to the masses.
I was that voice for them.
The voice of reason, an expert in my field,
and I'm like, "OK, well, that's not a bad place to be.
"That's actually a rather good place to be."
You know, I don't need to preach to the choir,
everyone who's already got the money and in fashion.
How about we do something of our own?
And you know what happened, of course,
is that the show became so incredibly successful
that magazines like Vogue, ten seasons deep, came knocking.
- Had to come back. - The ones who, had to come.
The ones who laughed at us and said,
"Ooh, you shouldn't do this, that's not right,"
you know, "It's makin' a mockery of fashion,
"we don't hang people from bridges,
"we don't put spiders on people's faces,
"we don't," you know, "do photo shoots on water."
And you know, "This is all silly stuff."
And actually, every single shoot we did
on America's Next Top Model was reference
of some fantastic photo shoot that
had actually happened in history,
and absolutely people put models in balls of glass
on the Seine, you know, in Paris.
And there are fantastic classic
pictures with people with animals.
And all that stuff is real.
And yes, sometimes hanging from bridges.
It doesn't happen every day,
but we're making TV, so we make it exciting.
So on our show, it does happen every day.
This is what could happen.
It was the fantasy, which is
what fashion is built on anyway.
And so ten seasons deep, Italian Vogue,
not just American Vogue, but the hippest,
most editorial, cool Vogue there is,
Italian Vogue, came on as our magazine sponsor.
One of the guest judges who sat next to me became
Andre Leon Talley, editor-at-large of American Vogue.
And we had the likes of, you know,
Versaces, Missonis, and every major designer
and supermodel come on as our guest judges for the week.
And the whole thing changed dramatically.
And I always thought to myself, secretly,
I laughed at myself and thought,
"Really, so what, now we're en vogue?"
"You know, ten years later?
"Who's missed the boat?"
Or quite frankly, you know, I think we were
perhaps more en vogue than Vogue was.
And they knew it.
- Isn't that weird?
The same thing could be said, I feel like,
just stepping back and saying, like that,
what is not in fashion becomes fashionable.
And to me the folks who are to this day
interesting as people, as visionaries,
as leaders, just look at Andy Warhol.
Like, he was talking about how
art and commerce were fascinating.
Like, it wasn't just being like, so...
True to art, I think he said the most interesting
kind of art is business, or something--
- Yes, right. - Some great line like that.
And when you can see a handful of examples
of people who are constantly reinventing themselves,
they're actually setting the trend,
even at the time where it's
very painful for others to follow.
Like, "Oh, they're crazy, what are they doing?"
And I think the same could be
said in basically any industry.
If you look at people who are doing
things that are sort of renegade.
What I wanna tap into and ask is,
this has been great storytelling, but did you know,
or did you realize that there was
a small chance that it could go like this,
but you were willing to risk it anyway?
- I think it was a bit of both.
It was definitely a bit of both.
There were times when you didn't know.
And you had to shake the dice a little bit.
But you know, you have to also know
what you're gambling with.
And you have to be ready to ante up,
and you have to also be ready to leave the table.
You know, and there are moments where you're like,
"OK, I've done this, I've made some good money,
"I've done what I needed to do, time to move."
And it's very difficult when you're
doing really well, actually.
And there was a time of course when I actually
was fired off my show, off America's Next Top Model.
I got fired.
And it was painful.
With hindsight, I may have left earlier, actually.
The funny thing is that a week later,
I got a job offer from Naomi Campbell and The Face.
And she asked me to host her show.
And I went straight in without even a break--
(Chase laughs)
in hosting her show for two years.
And it was complicated to do,
because Naomi was not good friends with Tyra
at the time, or any of that kind of business.
But actually, it was an eye-opener for me,
and again, further cemented my position
as being someone who was on television
talking about the business, once again.
But no, you know, you don't always know,
and you do have to take risks.
But every single time that something
comes up like that, you've gotta do your best,
you've gotta try your hardest,
you've gotta be as smart as possible.
And if you're not enjoying it, that's another part of it.
I'm incredibly passionate about everything.
And I don't take up anything just to do a little bit of it.
I'm like, "No, I'm either 100% in, or I'm not in at all."
You know.
And I feel that about life in general, you know.
- Well I have the same experience,
and I think we were laughing before we started
the cameras rolling, about how historically,
photography wasn't about giving away
all of your trade secrets, 'cause that was
the thing that the business was made on.
And, not dissimilar to you, I saw where this world
was going and said, "Wait a minute,
"information wants to be free and this is
"all gonna be common knowledge soon,
"so let's start telling stories about what it's like,
"and start, you know, providing a vehicle
"for other people to tap in."
And that, for me, and for CreativeLive,
like, that was an ignition point.
So I think that this is a very...
You've listed two ingredients.
One, sort of listening to the industry,
and looking at where it's going,
and not where it's necessarily been.
And also this secondary piece that
you just filled in for us of passion.
So is there some particular magic third ingredient?
'Cause you have to know an industry
well enough to step into it.
That's what you talked about, like "I knew fashion,
"I knew photography a little bit,
"and I could see myself in that role.
"I was very passionate about it."
Is it just those two ingredients,
or is there some other third ingredient?
- What I would say would be this,
is that the word passion is interesting,
'cause yes, it's you're passionate, and I am passionate.
And I'm driven, and I'm competitive, with myself
as well as other people and everything else, right?
But I'm also compassionate.
To myself, as well.
And when I say that I love myself,
I mean that in the right sense.
I mean that it's important to love yourself.
You've gotta be kind to yourself.
You can't be too judgemental.
You can't be too tough.
You have to know when, you know,
I always say, "Look, just do your best."
I may not be as good as you,
I may not be as good as the next person.
But I tried my best, and I'm proud of that.
You know, and that's a big part of life, I think, too.
You know, if you think you're better than everyone else,
of course, there's the word conceited,
and that's what that is, right?
But if, you know, you're OK with, "I ran my fastest.
"I came in second, but I ran my fastest.
"I couldn't have run faster."
Hey, what're you gonna do?
You gonna beat yourself up about that forever?
Doesn't make any sense, right?
So, giving yourself that opportunity.
But when you add these things together,
I think for me it was understanding that
I was always gonna try my hardest,
I was gonna put 100% in, and 120 if need be.
I would be OK with that.
And you know, there's the element of risk as well.
With those things, the magic is when
all of a sudden, something spontaneous happens.
And spontaneity, for me, is really
the American Dream in a way.
It's the word, freedom.
Because only when you are truly
free do special things happen.
And I see it on set all the time.
When the magic happens, when something I wasn't expecting,
and I'm like, "Wow," and literally the hair
on the back of my neck stands up on end,
and I'm like, "I just got something really special.
"And I didn't know that was gonna happen."
And it was a buildup of all those things,
and it's just spontaneous.
And it's very hard, 'cause you can't bottle spontaneity.
You know, but it is allowing spontaneity to happen.
You know, and it comes from I think
a lot of these things, these sort of other attributes.
If you allow that moment to happen.
- There's also, I'll reference another conversation
we had before, it's like, it's not just
the photograph that makes the photographer.
We talked about the end result, yes,
but it's kinda, can you give
that result over and over and over?
'Cause people are betting on you,
and they have to bet on something that is a known quantity,
whether it's being able to look at your portfolio.
But you also described how it's, in a photographer,
I think you could say this in any career.
Like, it's the total package, it's all of the things
that you can bring to that moment.
- Totally.
- And I wanna, A, have you comment on all of the things
that are beyond what people think about
when they think of a photographer.
Like, what are the other things that you control for?
So that's question one.
And then question two, is it in that world,
that are you really like creating
a fertile environment for spontaneity?
So, question one, like, what is it
beyond just the photograph that you
as a photographer are setting up?
You talked about client management,
or inspiration, or the sets.
So just tell us a little bit of story of that.
- It really, for me, and again, there's no--
- There's no list. - There's no list,
or there's no even magic potion, right?
I mean people often say, you know,
"What three things can I do?"
(Chase chuckles)
Or they're like, "Can you give me some advice?
"I wanna do what you did with your career."
It's like, that's just never gonna happen.
And you may have a better career than me.
Right, but, having a team was
always been incredibly crucial.
I'm the sum of my parts, and my parts,
you know, are everyone who works with me
and for me and around me, and you know.
And I met my wife, as I mentioned earlier,
25 years ago, with her twin sister,
and they became my muses.
And I had these incredible muses,
which helped me work and build my portfolio.
But my wife and I have also worked
hand-in-glove together for years.
And everything I do, every shoot that I do,
her fingerprint is on it as much as mine.
And many of my photo assistants have
been with me for a decade, and 12 years,
and 15 years, and, you know.
And everything they do, it's a part
of the DNA of what I do, you know?
It isn't just me, even if sometimes it is just me
and the model, there's so much that's gone into that.
Even my mood that day, even like the mood on the set,
my hair and makeup artists, the way they work
with people, and how they make people feel.
The way my stylists dress people.
It's not just having any old team.
It has to be this team, you know.
You can't trade people, it's like having your own family.
You can't trade your brothers and sisters
'cause you don't like 'em today,
for someone else, and say, "Oh, it's still family."
It's like, no, even if you don't get on, it's your family.
And these people become your family.
And some days they rub you up the wrong way.
Other times you love each other to death.
And when you don't see each other, you miss one another.
And it was that team, I think was the secret sauce.
And hey, you know what, you can build your own team.
It doesn't have to be my team.
That was the team that worked for me.
And that's the wonderful thing.
And I think most great people I know
have wonderful people around them,
and they're good at delegating.
They need to know how to do that,
and they need to know how to manage people too,
as well as themselves, and have people
there that manage them.
You know. (Chase chuckles)
I always say, you've gotta speak to the boss.
And I direct them to my wife.
I'm like, you know, if she doesn't approve,
or she's not gonna do it... (Chase laughs)
And I remember people like photographers like Helmut Newton.
You know, his wife worked all his photo shoots.
She picked the models, she set up the ideas
and the concepts, and he went and shot them.
You know, and people often will credit
Helmut for everything, but actually
his wife was very instrumental.
- The same is true for me, by the way.
Kate has been absolutely critical
in every element of my career.
And I try and recognize her, as you do your wife
of 25 years, the same, 25 years and counting.
- Amazing, congratulations.
- So, it's fair to say it's the total package.
You talked about team, you talked about the environment,
we've earlier talked about what it feels like on set.
So those are the parameters.
Now, is it all of those things that gets to culminate
in this magic moment, the serendipity?
Or is there some other magic that
you're trying to infuse in the moment?
'Cause that's the thing that people,
I think, when they're listening to you right now,
they're like, "Yeah, but how do I get,
where's the jush, how do I get that thing?"
- You know the jush is inspiration, probably.
And that is a love of life.
You have to appreciate life.
You have to literally wake up in the morning
and be willing and open to be inspired.
People say to me all the time,
"Oh, what happens if you're not inspired, or,"
you know, "you don't know what to do,
"you don't know how to shoot it," and I'm like...
I get a bit stuck with that question.
Because I'm like, I don't really know,
because I literally wake up, and I'm inspired by the rain.
I'm inspired by the smell of cooking. (chuckles)
I'm inspired by, you know, the color
of things around me, someone's story.
Good or bad, I mean I love New York City,
because it's dirty and smelly and stinky.
That actually inspires me.
Because how can you sing the blues,
unless you have the blues?
You know, and what a beautiful music the blues is.
You know, and like, most great love songs are of heartbreak,
not of actually, you know, being in love.
So you need the pain as well as,
you know, the nice side of life.
And heck, I hate to say it,
but it's one of the reasons I never moved to LA.
I love Los Angeles, but every time I'm there, I'm like,
"Hey, maybe I'll just hang here in the garden today."
- 'Cause it's so easy. - It's so nice.
(both laughing) You know, and I'm like, I go back
to New York, and I'm like, "Agh!"
- It's snowing today.
(talking over each other)
- Everyone's pushing, and stress,
and then I do my best work.
And I gotta say, some of my best shoots
have been when I had a hangover.
So hey, (chuckling) you know, it happens.
There were some times that that pain,
and if you push through, it's being inspired.
And if you're not inspired,
of course it's difficult to do anything.
But I feel very inspired all the time.
Everything, I listen to small things,
drops of water in the shower, the noise of music, anything.
I love music, I love colors, you know.
I go out, I see the Seattle sky,
and people are like, "Oh, it's gray."
I'm like, "Yeah, no, but it could be really emotional."
It could be really powerful, it could be really angry.
Or it could be really soft, it could be
really gentle, it's misty, it's like a queen.
And like, that's how I see things.
And I think that, for me, helps me in general
have those moments of spontaneity.
And I see opportunity.
I see promise in people.
I love people.
You know, I've done documentaries in Haiti, two of them.
I've done a documentary in Africa on pediatric AIDS.
And I'm fascinated in the human condition,
and how people in the most adverse of conditions
push through, power through, and decide that
they're not gonna accept this crappy life,
and actually they're gonna make something of it.
Even though they've got beyond nothing,
lost all their family members and live in a tent city,
and are, you know, a little girl,
and she's trying to get educated
and go to school every day, and trying
to make something better for herself.
And you see these people and you're like, "Huh."
How can you not be inspired?
- Last question, because I've already kept you
a couple of minutes longer than I promised.
- It's all good.
- Because he's gotta get back to his CreativeLive class.
We also talked about this before the show,
but we never really got to complete our thought,
and it's how we've both as photographers
taken on a lot of other interests,
and then we're doing things that
transcend the original concept of photography.
It's a little bit full-circle,
like when you talked about some of the folks
that have inspired you, like, wait a minute,
these people are doing so many different things.
Now with CreativeLive, you with your furniture line,
and Dogpound gym in New York.
What is it about this next aspect of your career
that you're most excited about?
And what do the rest of us have to learn from it?
- You know, I think it's one of those things.
It's a couple of things, right.
So some of this started like you mentioned,
I have a furniture line, it's called NB1,
and it sells at this store called Art Van in the Midwest.
And the gym, the Dogpound, they're very different.
I have an investment in this T-shirt company
that I'm wearin' right now.
And I have an investment in a wine company,
and all these different things, they're all very diverse.
They're things I love, right?
They're businesses I love.
And also, I thought to myself, as a photographer,
I've never waited around for people to hire me.
I've never said, you know, "I hope I get a job this year."
And, "who's gonna hire me?"
I literally go to people and say, "You should hire me.
"This is what I would do for you.
"This is how I feel your campaign should look."
And if they can't afford to pay me,
I'll say, "OK, how 'bout this."
Or they don't want to pay me,
or I decide I don't want to be paid.
Which is another thing.
I'm like, "Look, how 'bout I take a slice of your business?
"I will shoot everything, I'll handle your marketing
"and your advertising, and I'll turn it around for you.
And this is what we're gonna do, and this is the plan."
And utilizing everything that I have,
my celebrity and my social media,
and everything else, and my talent
as a photographer to tell these stories.
And it's been a very interesting kind of business decision.
And I remember with Art Van specifically,
I was brought on as a photographer
to shoot their catalogs and campaigns.
And I remember talking to Mr. Van himself, at a meeting.
And he says, "So, Nigel," you know,
"what would you like to do for us?
"What's your vision?" And I looked at him, and I said,
"Well, you know what I'd really
"like to do is my own furniture line."
(chuckling) And he looked, and he literally went, "Pff."
And laughed, and went, "Nope, no, no, I mean,
"what do you see as far as shooting our current campaign?"
And I'm like, "Yeah, no, I know that's what you meant.
"But I want my own furniture line."
And he looked at me and said, "OK, young man," you know.
(Chase laughs)
And he was in his 90s, like, "OK, young man.
"Can we just get--" (talking over each other)
You know, and anyway, two years later,
he came to me and he said, "You know what,
"we sell Kathy Ireland, we sell Cindy Crawford.
"They're both models.
"I don't see why a photographer who
"shoots models and actually creates the imagery
"shouldn't have his own line of furniture.
"Are you still interested?"
And I'm like, "I was hoping you'd come round."
And here we are now, several years
deep into it, and I love it.
We have over 200-and-something SKUs,
and I travel the world with them making this furniture,
and photograph it, I work with all these
great designers, and it's become a love of mine.
And I've always loved creating.
It's being creative, whether it's the gym,
and creating a look and a feel for that,
and the organic nature of how that started,
a group of friends working out together.
Whether it's a T-shirt company where, you know,
I felt there was a hole in the market
of a certain age group of men who leave college
but like a certain look but can't afford another one.
And here's that right price point for them.
And filling that hole.
To a wine company that, in a world of wine
which is so saturated, where it's so kind of pompous,
people don't understand it, they don't know the words
to describe it, they just know that they like it.
And I meet some cool, fun New Zealanders who created a wine,
and the warning label on the wine bottle says, "Be careful.
"Could contain traces of bloody good wine."
And I thought, that's me.
- Those are my people. - Those are my people.
Let's have some fun, you know?
And so I look for ventures and opportunities like that.
But it's really about people who are willing
to shake it up, take a risk, and be creative.
- It's really hard to end on anything but that.
(chuckling) We've gone a little bit over.
Super happy to have you on the show, man.
(clapping) - Thanks, bro.
Thank you so much.
And now, we gotta go get a drink,
I'm sorry that's not gonna be filmed.
(Nigel laughs)
But you know how to find Nigel,
you're just @NigelBarker, everywhere on social, right?
- That's right, yep.
- Track him down, give 'im a shout out when you see this,
and we'll see you again probably tomorrow.
(intense electronic music)
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