(jazzy hip-hop music)
- Hi, I'm Jackson Bird, and today, I am joined by--
- Ash Hardell.
- Yay. - Ooh.
- I think probably everyone watching this knows who you are,
but just in case they don't,
Ash, do you wanna say a little bit about yourself?
- Hi, I'm Ash.
I'm a queer and trans person.
I am comfy with any and or all pronouns.
- As indicated thusly.
- Yeah. (pins rattle)
My channel covers sexual
and gender diversity, and stuff like that.
- And today, we are gonna be basically asking each other
a couple of questions to become The Ultimate Binary
Non-binary Top Surgery Guide
to Being Prepared for Top Surgery.
- Yup, do you have questions about top surgery?
We'll answer them,
maybe. (Jackson laughs)
Some of them, at least.
- Because you are getting top surgery.
- I am, next week.
- Ah. - Ooh.
- You'll probably be recovering
when this video goes up or somethin'.
- Oh, that's cool.
Yeah, uh-huh. - Ah. (laughs)
- That's so real.
- Do you wanna start with asking me a couple of questions?
- How should I prepare my body?
What should I eat?
How should I move?
Things like that.
- You don't wanna have too much sugar, but pineapple.
- Okay. - Like before,
during, after really reduces swelling.
And do you know arnica?
- No.
- So arnica's like a homeopathic thing, I think,
but it's very legit, and my surgeon recommended it.
A lot of people do.
It's another thing that helps reduce swelling.
You can get it at a vitamin store.
- Okay, arnica and pineapple.
- Whatever you do to physically, mentally,
emotionally stay healthy ahead of time
is really good. - Okay.
- You're body's gonna go through trauma.
- Yeah. - You're gonna have to
be resting for a long time.
You're about to go through a lot.
So whatever you can do to just be
in the most tip-top shape ahead of time.
- Cool.
How did you mentally,
'cause you're about to, even though you don't want it,
you're about to lose something
that's been on you for your entire life.
And it is kind of like saying goodbye.
- Mm-hmm. - And for some people,
it might be like, yeah, fuck that, goodbye.
And I feel that a bit.
But still, how did you mentally find peace
in permanently changing your body,
and doing a big thing to your body.
- Well, there was a lot of years of work leading up to it.
- Right. Because the idea
of taking something off of my body
was really weird to me. - Yeah.
- In the weeks and days leading up to it,
I did a lot of writing.
- Okay.
- You might've read my zine. (laughs)
A lot of that came in the days before top surgery.
- Your zine is actually my favorite thing
of anything you've ever made.
- Wow, thank you. - I love your zine.
- Also, I had a body painting party with a friend,
a friend that I felt comfortable with,
and it was just a topless body painting party
to just kind of
celebrate my body. - That's cool.
I live in Minneapolis, and my surgery's in Florida.
What do I need to pack?
- So many things.
Double-check how many pillows are there.
You might wanna bring an extra one.
- I hear pillows a lot.
- Yes, so a neck pillow like you would have on a airplane.
- Yeah.
- That was a lifesaver.
- Okay. - I didn't think
I would really need it, but oh, my gosh,
that was the only way I was able to fall asleep.
- Oh. - Some surgeons tell you,
don't lay flat on your back
for a couple of days. - Okay.
- So I would kind of stacked on pillows like this
with it around my neck. - Neck, uh-huh.
- And then just sleeping like that for a few days.
- Right. - But I would not have been
able to fall asleep without that.
I mean, the good thing is
with all the medication you'll be on
and just the stuff that your body has gone through,
you'll be pretty tired.
- Okay. - So sleeping
should be a little easier.
But yeah, you will be pretty uncomfortable.
Other things to pack, face or body wipes
are really good. - Oh, okay.
- When you have drains in, if you're gonna have drains,
you can't shower until those are taken out,
which sometimes might be up to a week.
- Yup. - So--
- Ooh. - Yeah,
or like dry shampoo.
Or your caretaker can maybe wash your hair,
which actually feels really nice
when you're just feeling awful.
- Uh-huh.
- Things that make you happy like a book,
or pickin' out some Netflix shows you're gonna marathon.
I bought some little gold bendy straws,
'cause they just look nice.
- Aw. - And I was like,
this will make me happy when I'm drinkin' all my liquids
and staying hydrated.
- Somebody told me button-ups,
because that way you don't have to like
shoop into your shirts. - Yes.
- Oh, yeah. - You can just like--
- There's no way you'll be able to do that
for a while. - Right, okay.
- (laughs) Definitely button-downs and zip-up hoodies,
your arms won't,
you can't go up like that. - Can't do it.
Okay, okay. - Yeah.
Back scratcher.
- Oh. - Didn't think
that I was actually gonna use that,
but it was so helpful,
because you're gonna be wrapped up really tight
for a couple of days.
And especially with your drains,
you're gonna be itching all over the place.
So a back scratcher to help you
when you don't have much mobility, especially in your arms.
- Right.
- Your arms are gonna be like T. rex arms.
- Okay. - You're not really gonna
be able to go much more like this.
- Okay. - So things you could
normally reach like that, you won't be able to.
- Oh, okay, okay.
- So I have on my scars, one part it's stretched right here,
and I really think it's because I would reach up
to get the bowls from our cabinet.
- At what point in recovery?
- That was probably like a week and 1/2, two weeks in.
- Okay.
No reaching for two weeks.
- Yeah, at least, I would say.
You can kinda feel the tug and the pull.
And it's not that it hurts super bad,
it's just that you know like,
oh, that's not what I'm supposed to be doing.
It's like right here.
You don't realize how often this muscle gets used.
- Sure.
- It's such a weird thing.
So opening the fridge was really hard.
We wrapped a towel around the handle
in a little pulley system,
so I could open it. - Oh, interesting.
Okay. - Yeah.
I was surprised.
It was totally easy.
I could wash my face, and brush my teeth, and like--
- Okay, I'll be able to edit,
right? - Put my own pants back up.
- Editing is my plan, just to edit.
- Yeah, I would say give yourself a couple of days
to not work at all. - Sure, uh-huh.
- And just relax and recover,
'cause your body needs it and your brain kinda needs it.
When you've gone through a surgery like this,
you went to sleep,
and then you woke up and your body was different.
- Right.
- Your brain needs time to catch up with that.
- Uh-huh, that makes sense,
okay. - Yeah.
- So I have a question.
I have envisioned what my post-op chest
is going to look like a trillion and 1/2 thousand times.
And I'm worried that it might not look
exactly like what I'm envisioning,
and that that might break my heart.
How do I prepare for that?
And can you relate?
Was that a thing?
- Yeah, I can relate, I can so relate.
I think it's one of those things
where it's a combination of trying to stay positive
and put affirmational thoughts out there,
like no, it's gonna be great.
It's all gonna work how I want it,
but then also preparing yourself in case it doesn't.
- Okay.
- I was very lucky that things went so easily for me.
- Uh-huh.
- But I was prepared for the worst.
- Okay. - And in terms of your chest
not looking maybe how you want it to,
you're going to one of the best surgeons.
- But still, he's a human.
You know? - He is a human.
Things could go wrong.
- Uh-huh.
- But think of the probability of that.
It probably won't.
You're a very good
candidate for top surgery. - Right.
- And think about the things that can go wrong.
Most of them are things that can be revised.
- Sure, okay, that's true.
I could go back in for a revision
if I was unhappy with something.
Mm-hmm. - Exactly, exactly.
But in terms of just seeing your chest afterwards
with the best surgery results you can get,
and maybe not thinking it looks how you want,
that's maybe a bigger thing to consider
and a harder thing to grapple with, too.
I know for me, it started making me
way more dysphoric about my hips.
- Okay.
- Like from here up, I'm like, yeah, no, this does look
exactly like how I want. - Sure, uh-huh.
- Except maybe the scars,
but like-- - Right.
- Like this is great, I love it,
and then anything past right here,
I'm just like, (sighs). - Sure.
- You know? - Mm-hmm.
- But then again, I'm pretty binary,
so I don't know how you might feel in that regard.
- I think I'll have to wait till after top surgery
to see exactly how I feel about that.
I know that my curves aren't my favorite part of my body,
but yeah, and maybe top surgery will highlight that for me,
or ugh, I'm not sure.
What's your relationship like with your scars?
Or do you have pride in them?
Do you like them?
Do you dislike them?
- I have pride in them in the way
that I think pride really means,
which has been getting confused,
I think, a lot this year. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- Of people thinking that pride means
that you aren't upset about things, you aren't dysphoric,
but pride is finding pride in something that is hard,
and owning it. - Yeah.
- I don't always love them.
I really, really wanted to get periareolar
where you don't have scars across your chest
like you do with double incision, which I got,
which I believe you're getting.
- I'm getting that, and I'm in the same boat with you.
Peri would've been a dream. - Yeah.
And I think I was really, really close to borderline,
but I had been binding for 12 hours a day for five years,
and my skin elasticity just wasn't good enough.
So that is a thing to be considering
to all of you out there. - Mm-hmm.
- Safely bind.
So it took a while to get over that.
Also, we were talking about part of your body leaving,
and I was just able to conceptualize
and be more okay with that when it was like,
oh, with peri, it's just like some fat's getting sucked out.
- Yup. - But when you have the scars,
in my head at least, it felt more like,
oh, you're chopping something off your body.
I had those thoughts much more before surgery.
After surgery, it was like,
okay, whatever, this just feels right.
But my scars, I'm okay with them.
Because of my complexion, I'm very fair and pale,
they get bright red just whenever I'm hot or cold, you know?
- Okay. - Which is like anytime
that I might have my shirt off like at the beach.
So when I'm at home and treating them,
they're almost gone, they're fading so well. (Ash gasps)
But then anytime someone sees them, they turn red.
- Does anybody ever ask about your scars?
- No, but I feel like I've put myself
in positions to not get asked.
- Okay, what does that mean?
- Like when I'm at a pool or something,
unless I'm swimming, I usually put a tank top back on.
And that's also just because
sunscreen protection. - Sure.
Do you feel like your scars out you?
- I don't think they out me in nonqueer spaces yet,
but I do think as more-- - That one day, they will?
- Exactly. - No.
- As there's more visibility for trans people,
I think it's gonna be one of those things that clock us.
- I'm nervous about my scars.
- Yeah. - But it'll be fine.
- Yeah.
I will say, any time I'm with a bunch of trans guys
for a while, like if we've all just taken our shirts off
'cause we're being silly--
- Right. - Or we've been swimming
or something, and then I go and see cis men,
so often I'm just like, wait, where are there scars?
- That's funny. - Trying to figure out
where their top surgery scars are.
- You're doing your chest wrong.
- Yeah, what? (laughs) - You don't have these scars.
Did you feel insecure the first time
you took off your shirt in front of your family
slash have you taken off your shirt in front of your family?
This is a part that they've never
seen before. - Yeah.
- So even though it's more socially acceptable
for them to see that, because there won't be breast tissue,
I don't know, it still feels really vulnerable,
and like something that's not supposed to happen.
And then parents are always so parents.
(Ash laughs) - Yup, yup.
Well, so my mom took care of me after top surgery.
So she was there for that. - And that's why I'm asking.
Because my parents are gonna be taking care of me, too,
so it's inevitable.
It's gonna happen.
They're gonna see me without my shirt on.
But they've always seen me as like a girl.
- Yeah. (laughs) - Uh-huh.
I wonder if that will just mess with them.
- For the most part, my mom was just very pragmatic.
And she's seen me with my shirt off a couple of times
since the recovery process. - Okay.
- But no one else in my family
has seen me with my shirt off.
There hasn't really been
an opportunity. - A reason, sure.
Mm-hmm. - But there's also been like,
I could've had my shirt off
when I was there for Thanksgiving,
walking between the shower and my room.
But I didn't. - Didn't.
- I very specifically didn't.
It just feels like something
I don't really wanna breach with them.
- And then I think my final question for you
is like, I have a weak constitution in life.
I'm just, I'm fragile.
I'm worried about post-surgery depression.
- Yes. - Were you affected
by that at all?
And then how'd you cope?
- I don't think that I was, but I was so prepared to be.
Because-- - Oh.
I've heard that actually helps it not happen.
- Oh, yeah, then maybe.
- If you look at it, and you say like,
hey, post-surgery depression, you might happen.
I might get sad, and I'm ready for you.
People have told me that helps it not happen.
- Well, maybe.
- Okay.
- The biggest thing is to just try to remind yourself,
maybe even write a little letter
to yourself before surgery. (Ash gasps)
- About why you're doing it.
- Why you're doing it.
- Ooh, I've heard. - Just so that your depression
doesn't trick you into thinking
it was a mistake. - It was a mistake.
- Because it's not.
You know that it's not.
Even if you are someone who experiences depression,
it's less of just like a case of depression happening
for the random reasons depression does.
And oftentimes, it's more triggered by the anesthesia.
- Okay. - So anesthesia
can actually cause post-surgical depression.
There's some term for it.
It's a thing. - Yeah.
- You could read more about it. Also, on a note,
anesthesia can also make you super nauseous.
And if you're prone to nausea, you can tell them.
You can tell the anesthesiologist,
and they put in a little thing that's an anti-nausea thing.
- Okay. - So you don't get as sick.
- Oh, that's good to know.
- Yes. - Okay, cool.
Do you have any questions for me?
- Yes.
- What was your process of finding a surgeon?
Do some surgeons not operate on non-binary people?
- I don't know if they're anti-non-binary,
but they require T.
- Oh, okay. - Yeah.
- And some non-binary people can take testosterone.
- Right. - So right, that's not, yeah.
- But I'm not on T.
I found a surgeon.
Their name is Dr. Cori Agarwal.
They were the original person I was going to choose.
- Where are they?
- In Salt Lake.
And I found them just because I searched on YouTube,
like non-binary top surgery results.
And there's only like four.
And a lot of them were done by Dr. Cori Agarwal.
And I was like, oh, neat.
Well, this will make me feel really safe and happy,
because I know this person has experience
with non-binary folks before.
I've always been a fan of Dr. Garramone, though.
He does such great work.
I don't know why I never just looked into him, though.
I think I got so excited I found somebody
that special, not specialized, but had so much experience
with non-binary folks, that I was like, I'm gonna do you.
Then I found out that Dr. Garramone operates
on a ton of non-binary folks.
So that's how I found my surgeon.
- Yay.
- Mm-hmm. - That's very cool.
Does he need any form of letter or anything?
- Yup, uh-huh.
- So you do still have to go to a therapist,
a psychiatrist, and get a letter--
- Yeah. - Of a diagnosis
of gender dysphoria, is that what he requires, or?
- I think the letter says like,
shows persistent signs of gender dysphoria.
- I also have a more philosophical question for you.
- Okay.
- So when I was figuring out my gender,
there were times where I thought,
maybe I'm non-binary, or genderqueer, or something.
Or maybe I will just live out my life
not transitioning in any way.
But even then, I still knew I wanted top surgery.
As soon as I heard what top surgery was, I wanted it.
Before I knew what it was, I wanted a breast reduction.
That was just always how I wanted my body to look,
and that would felt like it should look.
But when I was having those thoughts of,
well, even if I don't transition, maybe I want top surgery,
it wasn't in a even if I don't transition,
I'm gonna walk around with my shirt off.
It was just I would still present in a feminine way,
but with a flat chest that no one really knew about.
But that's not your case.
Or I think that's not your case.
I'm just curious
how you approach it. - Yeah.
- How it's different
from what my experience was. - How am I gonna
navigate being or not being topless post top surgery.
- Yeah, part of it, yeah. - Yeah?
Okay.
So we're definitely gonna just feel that out.
- Yeah.
- Because I have a lot of fantasies
and excitement for walking around shirtless.
I think that seems so freeing,
and so exciting. - Mm-hmm.
- And going to the beach just in trunks.
- Yeah, it's so great.
- I think that could be really cool.
I think we find a lot of affirmation,
obviously, in representation.
So I follow a lot of non-binary folks
not on testosterone on Instagram.
Seeing them for the first time with their shirts off
kinda felt like it gave me permission to do that, too.
- Mm-hmm.
- I was like, oh, okay, you're not on T.
You don't have boobs.
You're being topless.
No one's being weird about it.
It looks right.
It just also looks like what they're supposed to do.
- Yeah.
- And so that's ideally what I want.
We'll see if that's how I feel afterwards,
or if I feel comfortable afterwards.
Also, obviously, my safety is a big thing
going to a public beach.
- Yes. - If I have a really
high voice, and I'm kind of effeminate,
maybe I won't feel comfortable doing that.
I'll probably start in really safe, small spaces.
But I also like this idea of sometimes wearing a sports bra
even though I don't have boobs.
- Yeah.
- I don't know,
because I have a very gender fluid part of me.
We'll feel it out after it happens.
- When I was figuring out my gender,
we talked a little bit about this last night
of just how gender doesn't exist in a vacuum.
- Yeah.
- And for me, I get a lot of dysphoria
from the society thing, and how society treats me,
and so I just have so much admiration, I guess,
for non-binary people who are able to just be themselves
knowing that they're gonna just get crap
from people all the time. I just wish you the best of luck
in navigating it afterwards. - Thank you.
Uh-huh, uh-huh.
- The best thing is that you'll be happy
outside of those spaces.
- Yeah.
I think at pride I will take off my shirt,
and I'll run around,
and I'll be so-- - Yay.
- I'll just flit around, and be real excited,
and that'll be neat.
That isn't something I can do now, really, comfortably.
I wouldn't comfortable doing it.
I feel like I might get asked more
about scars than you would,
because you just kind of are a guy with scars.
- Yeah.
- This is how I think society will read me.
A girl with scars and no boobs.
What?
What's going on there?
I feel like I'm gonna get a lot of either looks like that,
or question-- - I bet you'll get a lot
of really inappropriate people
assuming you had a mastectomy for cancer or something.
- Okay. - Even though people
who know about it knows that it doesn't look the same.
I never thought of that
till this moment. - Uh-huh, right.
- But just trying to think of what would a person think?
Yeah, if they read you as a woman.
- Right. - Who's not wearing a shirt.
Ugh, I don't like that.
- I know, yeah.
So that'll be a thing I'll have to navigate.
- Yeah. - Ah.
- It'll be really interesting, though,
and I'm so glad that you are sharing your story,
because like you said, there's not that many examples
of non-binary people not on T who get top surgery.
So I'll just be especially curious to hear what happens,
and how you feel, and how you navigate it.
- I'm excited.
- Cool.
All right, well, thank you, Ash, for joining.
And I'm so excited for you for next week.
We also filmed a video on Ash's channel
about gender euphoria.
Make sure you go watch that video
and subscribe to Ash while you're there.
- And Jack is gonna film a video
with my wife in two seconds.
- Yeah.
It's gonna be super fun, and that will be on,
what is the new name of the channel? AshAndGraceSPACE?
- Yup.
- Yeah, that's where that'll be.
And if you liked this video,
make sure that you subscribe to my channel here
for new videos every Wednesday-ish.
And you can also follow me on Twitter
and Instagram @jackisnotabird.
And that is all.
Thank you so much for watching.
I'll see you next time. - Bye.
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