- Hey, everybody, how's it going?
I'm Chase.
Welcome to another episode of the Chase Jarvis Live Show
Here on Creative Live.
This is the show where I sit down
with the world's top creators, entrepreneurs,
and thought leaders, and do everything I can
to unpack their brains with the goal of helping
you live your dreams, and career, and hobby and in life.
My guest today is a speaker, an author, a marketer,
he's actually the creator of one of the books
that's been the most impactful in my life.
I discovered it at a time where I was
I would say stricken with a lot of anxiety about the world,
about my career, and the book Play it Away
completely set me free.
And he's got a new book called Play for a Living.
My guest is Mr. Charlie Hoehn.
(upbeat music)
(audience applauding)
They love you!
- Chase, thanks for having me, buddy.
- Welcome to the show!
- Thank you! - This is gorgeous.
- It is.
It came out really beautiful.
- It feels so good.
- I know.
- Sorry, before I'm like lusting over the book here
on camera.
A, welcome to the show, B, it's been like a year.
- Yeah, it's been a long time.
- Yeah, a lot's happened for you.
And you just released the book.
Self published.
- Yes.
- That's, I think, an incredible,
I wanna talk a little bit about that.
But for folks who, maybe we can go back
to when we first met, which is probably like,
was it 2000?
It was single digits, 2008, nine, maybe?
- Oh, yeah, we met at--
- Tim's thing. - Tim's party.
- Yep. - Yeah, that's right.
- So you wanna take folks back
to a little bit about your past and our meeting.
And then we'll go from there.
- Yeah, so should I begin to like--
- Where you wanna begin.
At the beginning.
You were born in--
- Yeah. (laughs)
So I got out of college in 2008 during the recession
and like a lot of my friends was sort of expecting...
We were sort of expecting things to just kind of
fall into place pretty easily.
And they did not for many reasons.
And I spent a few months applying to jobs
that I thought I was supposed to apply to
on CareerBuilder, Craigslist and stuff like that.
And what was doubly demoralizing was
I didn't want the jobs, first of all, really,
but none of 'em responded.
And this was happening with all of my friends
and we were like, "What are we gonna do?"
This is just-- - Yeah, you just
suck all this time and energy into college.
- Yeah, yeah, no one had really taught us how to
properly get peoples attention, like Norton got your
interest. - Yes, yes.
- So I told my family I just want to spend
the next few months just doing what I wanna do,
trying to work with people that I really admire.
And if something comes of it, great.
If not, I'm back to where I am.
- Yeah, and you would have gotten some value in the interim
while you were chasing them.
- Right, yeah.
And I actually told them,
"I'll go be an oil land man, or something."
- Yep.
- (laughs) Guaranteed job
that you're making pretty good money.
So I got really lucky.
Seth Godin was doing a virtual internship
at that time.
So I was able to be one of,
I think 200 people initially signed up,
and I was one of a dozen that were left at the end
that stuck with it.
And so-- - Wow.
- He promoted us on his blog.
And that was my first toehold into the working world.
So I started getting job offers through that.
And then I started working with Ramit Sethi
and offered to help him with his video stuff.
And then I started working with Tucker Max.
And I offered to all of these guys
that I'd work with them for free
and I would give them a gift basically.
I would say, "Here's something you can use
"in your business right now."
So for Ramit, for instance, I made him
a speaking demo reel that he could use to get speaking gigs.
And--
- And that's before you knew Ramit, right?
Or is that-- - Right, yeah.
- This is was sort of to get their attention.
- Yeah, so we had emailed a number of times back and forth
but we hadn't really hung out or talked much.
So it was just to get their attention
to build a portfolio piece.
And long story short, I ended up working with Tim Ferriss.
Ramit and Tucker both introduced me to Tim Ferris.
Said, "You oughtta work with him."
I ended up being his first full-time employee,
his director of special projects
and did a number of crazy things with him
and that's how we met.
- Okay, I'm gonna trace back a couple steps.
So it's my goal to show, to help people
get into the things that they care about.
And whether that's as a hobby or as a career,
and so many folks that are a fan of the show, the podcast,
they don't know where to get started.
And what you just said, I think,
in a world where jobs are scarce and mercurial
and/or we're doing shitting things
that we aren't programmed to do
or we're following some sort of cultural norm.
And I think it's interesting, before we go any further,
I think it's interesting that you experienced that
and decided to try and break out of that mode.
I think that's a mode that so many people,
there's this realization, especially now
with information moving so fast,
you can see a lot of people tapping into their dreams,
and then we use kinda grinding at this job
that you don't love,
that's slowly wearing you down
that creates this sort of anxiety gap
between what you're doing and what you wanna do
and you see other people who are doing the things
that they're supposed to be doing.
How intentional was that,
where you realized that?
I heard something in your opening sort of salvo there
that it's like, "I was doing the things
"that I was supposed to do."
So talk to me about that,
because I think that's a huge thing for the folks at home.
- Totally.
Yeah, so it was extremely intentional
and occasionally uncomfortable.
So my mom thought it would be a good idea
to go back and get my MBA,
that it was like a good time to do that
since no one was really hiring.
And I just thought there's no way
that another degree's gonna solve this problem
of me looking like everybody else
that's coming out of college.
So it was really intentional.
And I knew who I was.
Sort of at the core was somebody who is an ideas person,
a creator, and I just wasn't seeing anything that fit me
on any job listing site.
And that's the way it's supposed to be.
- Yeah, you're supposed to lock in and see your thing.
And go all in and, "I wanna be a doctor."
or a lawyer, or whatever you see in the world.
And if you don't see that,
I think that's one of the things...
I just had Brené Brown on the show.
We were talking about for people of color
or in gender imbalance.
It's like you need to see your role models in your thing.
And without that, it's frustrating and
anxiety creating-- - Yeah, you feel
a little crazy.
- Yeah, and anxiety creating.
And you said, I think you said demoralized
was a word you said earlier.
And so if you're not seeing yourself
in the image of the things that you're setting out
to do as a career, you have to change that.
And that was (mumbles). - Yeah.
Well, it was just so frustrating, too,
because the whole implicit promise is
if you go through these series of steps
for 17 years of your life, it will work out.
And then the rest is like--
- There you go.
Gold watch for you later. - (laughs) Right.
- And retired.
- Yeah, so it was actually the best thing
that could've possibly happened
to be hit with that, like, no,
that's not how things work.
You actually have to try and strive to.
If you want a remarkable life,
there is no prescription for that.
There's no recipe.You just need to go and create it yourself
and who better to learn from
than the guys that I was working with?
They were as close to roles models as I could see.
- Well, also, implicit in that story
is that you were aware of the things
that you, like you said earlier,
you knew who you were and somewhere in there
you're like, "I'm not this..."
maybe nine to five is not the right,
"I'm not cut out for the corporate world."
Or whatever.
And when you have heroes and role models
and/or people that you aspire to
to either be around as a part of the community
or look and act like...
Talk about how important deconstructing their lives was
to you finding out what was important
or what you wanted to do.
Were you look at Ramit.
Like, what did Ramit do?
Or Ramit sort of hacked his way into creating a career
for himself.
- Yeah, yeah.
It was really that they just had done...
all of them to me had walked away form the typical path,
the conventional path.
And I didn't wanna do this just to be contrarian.
I just felt like I was on their wavelength.
And I felt like these were guys that I could play with
on the same level some day.
And so I wanted to get there as quickly as possible.
And so I remember actually with Tucker,
I didn't discover Tucker through his funny stories
that were super popular for college kids.
I remember reading an essay that he wrote
called Why You Shouldn't Go to Law School.
And I read it and it was around that time
that I was feeling a little bit of pressure
to maybe get an MBA.
And so I read that and I was like, "Oh, this is truth."
And I love that about Tim, too.
A lot of the stuff he was saying was very
Office Space, Fight Club-esque.
It captured what a lot of people were feeling.
And I don't know, man, kids are smart.
They can pick up when adults are not crazy
about the life that they've chosen for themselves.
And you get that sense early on in your life.
And I'm sure you got that at some point
as well. - Yeah,
it's like speaking truth.
You can hear the truth from bullshit.
And maybe your truth also embedded in there.
When the people are living their dreams,
it's very intoxicating and inspiring
and gives you energy.
Energy is, I'm a huge believer in energy.
Not necessarily, no not this, but not like,
"Ah, I could feel you chakra."
or blah, blah, blah.
It's just energy like having some is required
to do whatever you care about.
And those things it's a cycle, right?
When you see things that inspire you,
you get energized when you have energy.
And you do those things, you get re-energized
and energy is the things that propels you,
versus, you know, when you're doing something
you're not supposed to be doing or where you don't love
and it's draining to you and when something drains you
not only does it not give you the gas tank,
but there's a psychological spiral down,
which is a miserable
and scary place to be. - Yeah, you grow
to resent yourself,
you grow to resent the people around you,
'cause you start to think like,
"Oh, they're part of the
reason why I'm here. - (laughs) You're keeping
me down! (Charlie laughs)
Well, so, again, going back to your opening salvo,
talking about seeing people in the world,
all of whom that you mentioned have been on the show.
Ramit, Tim, Seth, all exemplary examples.
Can you say that?
- Exemplary examples.
(both men laughing)
- Of what the show, what I think Creative Live stands for.
If you look at the work that you did there,
relative to what you thought you would have gotten
if you would've followed the path
that your mom asked you to go on,
which is go spend another two years, 40, 50 grand a year
to get an MBA,
contrast where you went and what you learned,
versus the traditional path.
- I mean, it's (laughs)...
You can't compare the two.
It's totally different worlds.
But so with, let's see...
So with Ramit's...
So the question is basically like,
what's the difference between if I had an gotten an MBA
and versus where I would be?
- Yeah, and then maybe it's theoretical versus practical
or maybe it's like the real world grind
or you get to see behind the scenes
of what it actually takes versus living by case.
Like, I don't know just-- - Yeah.
- Because I think people are sitting at home right now
and they're having the same conversations.
Their parents are saying, "You need to go to school."
Or their employer is...
They're in a bullshit job and they're employer is saying,
"Yeah, you know, the best chance you have to get a raise
"is to go get your MBA or to get your advance degree."
And maybe it is in that field,
but I think there's something about the practicality
of like doing shit of...
It's more a portfolio world now than a resume world--
- Yes, 100%. - Is the maybe at the core
of the question.
So what are some of the things that you picked up on?
- So for people watching this who are in that position,
they might feel that getting another credential
is the safe path, that throwing down
another $100,000 in debt is actually safer, right?
In your face, first of all.
- That's the narrative, though.
- It is! - That's why the face I made.
(chuckles) For those of you who are listening,
I just made a bad face, (chuckles) sorry.
- So the way I viewed it was these guys generally
are probably not going to--
I wanted to work with them
so I could get the behind the scenes,
so I could actually see it.
And you can actually read the email, the first email
that I sent to Tim Ferriss,
breaking down like here's what I want,
here's what I can provide for you,
here's why I want why I want,
and here's what I'm willing to do to make this happen.
And I basically said I just wanna be able to see
entrepreneurs doing their thing
the way that I could see myself doing my thing someday.
I wanna know how that's done.
And so I offered to work for free for them
because I knew it was more valuable than paying $100,000
for a degree where I can study some case studies
and learn how to write a business plan.
- Yeah.
- So my life, if I'd gone the MBA path,
I would not have the confidence in myself
to know that I could play the game.
It would all be theoretical.
- Yeah, and you'd be $100,000 poorer--
- $100,000 poorer.
- With less confidence and still not know what it took
to do the thing.
- Right!
And still in this little safety net
that isn't really real.
I also gained relationships that...
Immeasurable, the value,
And I was explain--
Somebody asked me the other day,
"What was it like working with Tim Ferriss?
"Like what was the big change,
"the transformation that you had?"
And I said,
"You know, the thing that I really took away from it,
"more than anything, he expanded my brain.
"Like he expanded what I thought was possible in the world."
A lot of people read the The 4-Hour Workweek
and they're like, "What?"
But hanging out with him was like 10 times that,
because of the people he introduces you to,
the opportunities they get,
the work that he would hand off to me.
It's just stuff that I would've never
done on my own.
There is no company in the world
that would've handed me those things at the time.
There probably are some now,
because they're seeing like, oh, that's (laughs)--
- That's a new thing. - There's a market there.
But at the time it was like,
"I can't believe that this is my job.
"This is unbelievable, it's amazing."
It was my dream job.
- So I'm gonna grab the ball for a second and say
Tim and I been friends for, I don't know,
probably going on more than 10 years now,
shortly after the The 4-Hour Workweek came out.
And a mutual friend introduced us.
And when he had an event,
and at the event I remember very clearly meeting you.
It was a event for maybe 100 people or something,
and really fun and interesting people
who now I'm thinking back like, "Oh, my God,
"that's where I met Neil Strauss."
And just a really fun cross-section of people.
And I remember very clearly being introduced to you.
And it was like, oh, I can tell that dude
is on a mission.
He is an amazing executor.
And all the shit that's happening around us is
largely as a result of the work that Charlie's doing.
And I'm an idealist, a dreamer,
and I've always worked to pair myself with people
who had a passion for the executing.
Like my wife, Kate, is a producer.
She makes stuff happen
and to be able to combine those tools.
And then we each get like, like I get a little producer love
or I guess vibe
from here, from Kate. - Right in the organs.
- Yeah, and she gets a little idea thing from me
and we both sort of lift one another up.
And I feel like I saw that in you.
You were running the entire event.
And I could, for some reason, just I felt connected to you.
And you were sponging all this stuff up.
And then I realized later, by reading some of your work,
that you were pegged, you were at 11
in sort of both a good way and a bad way.
So we went through the romance of,
all right you got your dream job and you work
with all these great guys and men and women
who are doing things that you loved,
but let's hear the flip side
of the coin for a second. - Yeah, I was gonna say,
when you were like, "I was feeling the love."
I was like coulda been the drugs.
- Yeah, (laughs) coulda been the drugs.
- That I was on, yeah. - Right, so talk to me
about that for a second.
I think that's the thing that's important
for people to know. - Yeah, yeah,
so I hit this peak with working with Tim.
We had this wonderful, he had this wonderful success
with the 4-Hour body.
We got through that launch.
And then the next project
was the event that you mentioned, Opening the Kimono.
Which is a book marketing event for
about, yeah, 130 entrepreneurs.
People all over the world flew in.
They paid a lot of money to come to this event.
And I think I was 24, 25 at the time.
I'm 31 now.
And so my experience in throwing events
was like keggers in college.
And so (laughs)-- (Chase laughing)
I was a little freaked out how this was gonna go.
And so in the months leading up to that,
fortunately had help from, do you remember Susan Dupree?
- Vaguely.
- She was working right next to me during that whole event.
She reached out to me before that event
and she said, "I'll help you throw this event for free."
And her (chuckles) background
was she had just helped Steve Jobs launch
the original iPhone.
- Yes, yes, oh, that's right! - Only the biggest event.
- Okay, yeah, yeah. (Charlie laughing)
I remember, I remember
Yeah, yeah, okay, that was the connective tissue
I was missing.
- Yeah, and so she had an amazing background.
Like that was one thing of many
that she had under belt.
- Wow. - And so she helped me a ton.
I couldn't have done it without her.
Still, it was stressful knowing the roster
that was coming to that event and what kind of event it was.
And so as the event got closer, I just was like
I can't afford to sleep during this entire event.
If something goes wrong, I need to be up, I need to fix it.
I don't necessarily have anybody else
who can be like as on top of the ball doing this as myself.
So I-- - 'Cause you just knew
all the ins and outs and
like (drowned by Charlie). - Yeah, yeah.
And so I secretly ordered
from an Indian pharmaceutical company, some smart drugs
that were originally designed to keep fighter pilots awake
for multi-day missions.
And now they give them to people with narcolepsy (chuckles)
to prevent them from spontaneously falling asleep.
And I was on that for four days.
I got a total of six hours of sleep.
- In four days.
- In four days, which your body is designed
for every two hours you're awake,
you have to be asleep for one.
I was at a for every 16 hours I was awake,
I was sleeping one, which is--
- It's a bad ratio.
- (laughs) It's so horrible.
- I can do math and that means it's a bad ratio.
- Yeah, I mean, there's a reason that we torture
prisoners of war by sleep deprivation.
- Yeah, it's the worst.
- It's the worst.
- So is it fair to say, I don't wanna,
well, I am, I'm gonna take the liberty
of putting some words in your mouth now.
Did that just bust you wide open?
- I think it-- - Or was the the first,
was that like a tipping point that you realized that,
"Oh, my God, this is not sustainable.
"And what am I doing?"
- Yeah, I think it was really the push
that sent me over the edge.
And it...
I mean, leading up to it it wasn't like I was, like
"Yeah, I'm getting 10 hours of sleep a night."
I was pushing it hard.
And I was drinking a ton of coffee.
I was sitting still all day hammering stuff out
on the computer.
I would go to a cafe in the morning
and stay 'til night and have happy hour there at night.
And like, you know,
I was living with my roommate was...
One of my roommates was in the financial industry
and he was working even longer than I was.
So he was getting up at 4:30 in the morning.
He was coming home at one.
- Wow.
- Yeah, like this was the norm around...
It was almost the-- - Was it in New York?
Or where you guys? - I was in San Francisco.
- Got it.
- Yeah, and I was actually working remotely at the time
because Tim was traveling around.
So I had to really have the discipline
and the way that I was doing that a lot of the time
was just like stimulants mostly.
Which is, you know--
(Charlie laughs) - Yeah, here we are
sipping iced coffee.
- Sipping it nice and slow. - Talking about it. (laughs)
Yeah, and enjoying it. (Charlie laughs)
- Yeah, so but, yeah, I did not take care of myself
and I really think that it wouldn't have mattered
whether I was working with Tim or somewhere else.
I was working at a startup.
Like it would've happened eventually.
That's just my personality and--
- But I think it's all, that's part of the connection
that I'm trying to make for the folks at home
is that, sure, there's a personality component of it,
but there's also a cultural component of it.
- It's true. - And it's really like it's...
We have to find a way to understand what the culture
is programming us and feed ourselves different information,
because culture says you're not enough,
you're not worthy.
You're comparing your dirty laundry
to everybody else's highlight reel.
That's what social dose.
There's all kinds of-- - Grass is permanently
always greener on the other side.
- Yeah, on the other side.
And in hearing and unpacking a little bit about your story,
I'm, and I guess, so many people who are guests on the show,
the goal is to say that, "Hey, look at,
"we all put our pants on the same way
"and we're all experiencing the same message."
So what do people who have found a way to break through,
what sort of things do they tell themselves?
What's their self-care routine?
What are they dreaming about?
And how do they protect against
the downsides of culture and get all of the upsides.
So would you say that you fully crashed?
Crashed and burned and you're like, "I'm done,
"I'm broken.
"I need to go lick my wounds somewhere."
And give us the low-low.
- Yeah, so the low-low, I remember.
I was thinking to myself like after that event.
The event went really well.
- It did, it was awesome.
- Yeah, but after that event, shortly after,
we dove into his next book, The 4-Hour Chef.
And we were working on that for awhile.
And I remember thinking I don't know if I'm gonna be able...
I feel different after that event
because of how hard I pushed myself.
I know how intensely Tim goes after making a great book.
And I know the ride in front of me.
I don't know if I'm gonna make it.
And so I remember there was this one weekend where
a family member passed away, a close friend of mine
attempted suicide and then like the deadline
for the 4-Hour Chef got pushed back six months.
And it was just...
I told Tim, I was like, "I gotta take the next week off
"or something, 'cause I just don't know.
"I don't know."
And then I came back from that week,
and like going to meet up with Tim, I was like shaking,
'cause I'd decided I had to quit.
'Cause I was just toast, I was done, I was a wreck.
I was super fragile.
And spent a long time after that just kinda spinning out
and trying to figure out what was going on with me
and how I'd felt and which I'd never felt that way before.
And, yeah, that was really
kind of the lowest point, I think.
Or one of them.
- Yeah, well, what helped you turn it around?
Like what was the...
When you said you were spinning and let's just...
I don't wanna glorify it or I don't wanna linger
on it too much, but also I don't wanna glorify.
You're spun out, you're like, "I'm broken."
- Yeah.
- What helped you get through it?
And what'd it look like when you realized something
and you started sorta climbing
back out of the hole. - Sure, yeah,
so I'll tell you what got me out.
But, first, I do wanna note, there were a lot of things
that I tried, like basically everything
that doctors tell you to try if you're anxious, depressed,
like you name it, I did it.
And none of it really worked.
It would work for like a few hours
or maybe a couple of days
and then it was-- - What were some of the things
that you tried?
- (exhaling) Yoga, meditation, therapy, journaling,
going on extreme diets, trying every supplement
you can list, all forms of exercise.
I was volunteering, I was praying,
I was doing flotation tanks regularly.
- (chuckles) This is a good list.
- Psychedelics.
You name it, I did it.
And I even took a six-week course.
Once I realized it was anxiety, I took a six-week course
for men struggling with anxiety.
That didn't work.
I saw my doctor.
That was the first step.
I saw my doctor and she was like, "Hey, take these pills."
And then I looked up the pills and it was like,
"Wow, these are some gnarly side effects.
"I'm a little afraid of taking these."
So I decided to go the natural route.
What worked, to your question, was play.
And I discovered it at a friend's house,
at Tucker Max's apartment.
He, on his bookshelf, had this book, Play, by Stuart Brown.
Sat down, read the book in a sitting,
and it was like so obvious.
This book is...
It talks about the evolutionary benefits of play
and why play is the key to creativity,
it's why human beings are able to bond with each other
and form communities and connections.
And play is this essential ingredient in life.
You can deny work.
A person can go their whole life without working.
Human beings are designed to play.
Like you cannot prevent a person from playing.
And they have done tests on animals,
where primates and lab rates,
where they stopped them from playing.
They give them everything else that they want.
They give 'em food, water, love, nurturing,
shelter, everything that they need.
But when they stop them from playing,
they develop emotional and social handicaps.
They're crippled.
They lash out at their environment,
they're afraid to explore,
they're afraid to interact with their peers.
And then they'll just like lash out angrily at them.
And I started digging more and more into play deprivation.
What happens?
There's another great guy.
Have you heard of Dr. Peter Gray?
- No.
- He's a play researcher as well.
And he's measured and studied like
what happens...
How our schools have changed from the 1950s
up until now.
And across the board, play has plummeted
and anxiety and depression in kids has gone up.
And, obviously, like correlation doesn't equal causation,
but the correlation is very tight.
As play goes down, mental illness goes up.
And so I started thinking to myself,
maybe this is all I gotta do.
Maybe I just add play back into my life.
And as I started adding it back in every day,
within a month, I had no symptoms really
of major anxiety or any, I just felt normal again.
And I was back to who I was.
- So, A, thank you for sharing that.
- Yeah.
- B, I don't know, I think you sent me a draft of the book
before you released it.
The book is called Play it Away.
And in the intro I said it was like
one of the more profound books that's affected me.
And this is why I'm gonna connect a couple of dots
we've talked about here, I'm gonna try.
So we talked about cultural, the nature of culture right now
is sort of comparing ourselves to others.
There's like a lot of benefits of social,
but there's also the challenge of you're looking
at your real life and everybody else's highlight reel.
And the fact that we're working so much
and that with technology, there's all kinds of upside
but there's also isolation and plenty of downside.
And when the book came out...
I am a Type A person.
I have a ton of energy.
And I would never have described and speak in front
of 10,000 people.
I would never describe myself as having anxiety
until I started like feeling different.
And I thought different was part of success.
Like as the--
(Charlie laughing)
No, I really did. I really did.
It's like, oh, wow, this is a by-product of success
is maybe it's intensity, or I don't know what the thing is.
And I still to this day don't do a very good job
of describing it.
But what I felt was there was a hamster wheel.
And it was self-talk.
And it wasn't bad, it wasn't like you're horrible.
But it was like, you're this and this and this.
And this and this, the stakes are high here.
It's like kind of what you described earlier
is like when you were planning that event.
"I can't drop this ball, I gotta make this,
"this is really important, and what if I?"
And I realized that that was a non-stop dialogue in my head.
And that that actually equaled anxiety.
That was anxiety just sort of sitting in my back pocket
going everywhere with me. - Wow.
- And certainly I had gone through some hardship
and when your career is on 11 and this is the soundtrack
that's in you brain.
And everyone else is like,
"Oh, my God! You're killing it!
"Things are blowing up!"
You get this weird association with,
I don't wanna give up all the rewards,
the social awards that I'm getting,
let alone money or attention or fame,
or whatever the thing is.
And you sort of there's this correlation of
that positive with the negative
that's going on in your brain.
And, for me, it was this, err, dissonance,
like something is off.
I read your book and I was like,
holy crap, that's what's happening.
- Wow. - This is anxiety.
And, again, to this day, I don't consider myself
an anxious person, but I learned
that anxiety is like right under the surface
for so many people.
And whether it's, I don't even know if I wanna even use
the word diagnosis, but I get the sense
that it was a little different for you,
that you were aware that this is anxiety.
I'm seeking medical professions and seeking therapists
and what not.
And it sounds like your play
was a very, very intentional thing.
Like, "I'm gonna try this."
- Yeah.
- And so what I'm gonna--
This is the leap here, this is my two-minute monologue here
is that, you, whether intentionally,
you have anxiety and you suffer from it
and you can get out of it through play,
or if anything of the things that I described
like just that running monologue and self-talk,
it's not-- - Constant worrying.
- Constant worrying--
- Yeah.
- Like what I would encourage anyone
who's listening or watching to take up play.
And let's, so now I'm gonna hand the ball back to you
and say so what were some of the things that you did.
Yeah, go ahead.
Take it away. - Just to add
to what you were saying is I think it's important
for not only the people who are having the constant worrying
like you're talking about,
but some people are watching, I'm sure.
Like, I'm anxious and I feel anxious.
It's a feeling.
It's not the constant,
there's like the rapid heartbeats--
- Short breath. - Sensation.
Short breath, that sort of thing.
It applies to both.
Play can help both.
- So now let's get real tactical.
- Yeah.
- So what do you--
'Cause saying, "I played."
is very ambiguous. - (laughs) Right.
- With a smile on your face-- - And it sounds a little
childish, right? - Yeah, we're playing.
Like what is play?
It sounds childish, you're right.
- There's a lot of stigma around the word.
- Yeah, let's go play!
- (chuckles) Right.
- Play house, play dolls, play football.
So what did you, when you said you started to introduce
play into your day, get tactical, what does that mean?
- Oh, I just mostly played house.
(laughs) You know. - Wee!
- Yeah, so for everybody it's what is your play history?
When you were a kid, when adults weren't forcing you
to do anything, you weren't getting graded,
you weren't getting judged.
Like what were the things that you and your friends
were just naturally drawn to
and would do for hours and hours at a time,
because it was fun and like put you
just naturally into flow.
- Yeah.
- Right?
So for me, that was the first step
was reassessing like, okay, I know who I am,
I just have not been in touch
with that individual for awhile.
And so when I did that exercise, I found
playing catch, playing Home Run Derby were two big ones.
I created art.
I built things with my hands.
- And this is your, sorry to interrupt.
So you're looking, you're just like,
"What did I do when I was 12?" - When I was growing up.
- "To bring joy when I had a lot of time?"
- Yeah.
- And what was the, like, you look back,
you're like, "Oh, my God, that was fun."
whether it was like--
- I did that all time. - Riding a little mini bike
around in the backyard or, like you said,
playing whiffle ball or whatever.
It's like literally go back and survey the things
in your history.
- What did we spend the most time on?
And it gave me this cool excuse to call up
some of my childhood friends.
And everybody, it's just asking 'em like,
"What do you remember us doing?"
And they're like,
"Dude, you played so many freaking pranks on us,
"like it just drove us nuts." (Chase laughing)
So pranks, practical jokes.
I loved doing sketches,
like filming sketches with my friends.
- Okay.
- So it was...
I had this list of things that I just hadn't done
in a long time.
Or if I had done them, I didn't allow myself to enjoy them.
- Interesting. - So I was, my mind
was always either backtracking
on the stop that I'd screwed up or
the work that I need to-- - Planning the future.
Yeah. - Be doing in the future.
So, yeah.
- How much do...
What's the connection, if any,
and none is a fine answer, by the way,
but what's the connection, or do you see a connection
between mindfulness and presence
and your experience with play?
- 100%, yeah, 'cause it brings in you into the present
if you allow it.
If you're enjoying yourself, if you're enjoying your life,
you're not in the future. (laughs)
- Yeah, you're present.
- Right, yeah, and play is just an activity
that just brings you straight into mindfulness.
Or it could be work.
It can be conscious work where you're just fully present.
So to answer your question of what I was doing.
So I just started looking at...
I thought I'm just gonna view the world in terms of play.
So work opportunities or play opportunities,
people are potential playmates.
World's a playground, not a prison,
the way I've been thinking of it in this place
that where things can go wrong.
And people are not transactional.
So the next day a friend of my introduced me to
his friend, 'cause I had just moved to Austin.
And he said, "You gotta meet this guy."
And he was like, "Hey, let's go over...
"Let's meet up and have coffee
"and talk about how impressive we are to each other."
And I wrote back to him and said,
"Why don't we go play catch at the park instead?"
And he was like, "Hell, yes, let's do it."
So we ended up doing that.
And after that experience,
I came back and I like felt noticeably lighter.
And so I just kept doubling down on that.
So I signed up for improv and that was extremely liberating.
That was like tapping back into my soul.
Tucker and I were playing Home Run Derby
on the weekends and--
- I use that example when I...
And before we started recording,
Nasa here, who's behind one of the cameras
was saying like, "Yeah, Chase is always talking about
"the book that you wrote Play It Away."
And this follow up called Play For a Living,
where almost like goofing off
is a way of furthering human connection.
And what I've also found in employing a lot of these
techniques that you're talking about
is not only do I bring joy to myself,
but when you, like the example that you just gave about,
"Hey, let's meet up for coffee>"
When you say, "Let's actually...
"We'll talk about whatever we need to talk about.
"But let's go play catch at the park
"or let's go shoot baskets."
But let's--
- Ping pong or anything. - Walking meeting
or ping pong meeting or like what I have found
as the other person, you rock them out of the
sort of the normal rut.
And when you have a walking meeting
or you say, "Let's go play catch at the park
"while we're talking."
It has this sort of experience of bringing others along
and getting them out of their world.
And so there's this sort of other positive juice
that you get, 'cause they're like,
"Oh, my God, that was so awesome.
"Thank you for our walking meeting here."
Or whatever, just something that's different.
And that was in like a side benefit that I got.
Specifically, Home Run Derby, to me is hilarious.
And that is just you went and bought a bunch of baseballs
and some bats.
And then you just take turns with your buddy pitching
and then you'd hit 'em all over the park
and go pick 'em up and trade.
- I did that every week with my friends growing up.
Like, we loved it.
And my backyard was perfectly designed for that.
It drove our neighbors sort of nuts,
but our whole neighborhoods was friends.
So we were pelting tennis balls into their windows.
(chuckles)
_ This is, as a full grown adult,
you went back to the things that brought you joy as a kid.
- Mm-hm, yeah.
And I've heard from...
I mean, that book's been out for a few years now.
I've heard from a lot of people
who've had those experiences that you talked about,
like I've heard from sales guys who are like,
"I'm really good friends with my clients now.
"And I've never had that before,
"because we changed how we did meetings."
I had a guy who was like, "I was able to get a girlfriend,
"because we went on a catch date."
They actually did fun stuff rather than going to a bar
and like, "Let's stare at each other and drink alcohol to
(laughs) "calm our nerves."
- Right, until we can't remember
why we're there in the first place.
- So it's such a simple, easy thing to do.
- So this, within 30 days.
- Yeah.
- How long had you been suffering?
- 'Bout a year-and-a-half.
- So would you call it depression?
Would you call it anxiety? - It was a little bit of both.
It was primarily anxiety.
When I say anxiety, I think that word
unusually gets thrown out a lot these days.
Like people will be like,
"Ugh, I'm gonna have a panic attack if I don't blah, blah."
It's like, no, not like that, yeah.
It was debilitating.
It was to the point where I was afraid
to interact with people because I always felt like
they were judging me or criticizing me or about to--
It was this weird feeling like I was about to get attacked.
It's exactly like the lab rats and stuff.
It was that primal fear that just sort of dissipated
and went away.
- Yeah, I think I've heard anxiety described
is like you're planning for...
Or maybe this is just sort of an aphorism,
you're like most of anxiety is planning for things
that never happen.
So you're always solving problems that aren't there.
Like, "What if that person over there attacks me?
"Then I'm gonna go over here and do this."
- Basically every prepper is (laughs) struggling
with emotional issues that they're not addressing.
- And so within 30 days by simply introducing play,
you, I don't know, do you use the word cured, or fixed,
or were yourself again, or like--
- For myself it was cured.
It was cured because I knew
if I ever had that sensation again,
I had zero fear of it taking over my life.
- You have a solution.
- And I knew it worked.
- Here's a confession
that sounds a little bit too Cranach.
I'm very happy to get share this with you.
Is that because of your book, I track 10 habits
that I do every day.
One is try and be in bed for eight hours.
Not necessarily sleep, 'cause I can do that,
but try and be in bed.
If I can, great.
And I meditate in the morning and the evening.
And there's a list.
I haven't shared it pretty widely.
And on that list is play.
And because of your book, I try to play every day
and the way that I attract this is
not sort of, "Did I play accidentally?
"But did I play intentionally?
And then I say I'm gonna look at this as a game
and I'm gonna try and make it fun and goofy.
- That's awesome.
- And whether it's-- - Do you have your phone?
- I do.
- Can I see how the progress is going?
- Sure. - What have been
some of the things that you've intentionally played?
- So for those of you who are listening and not watching.
I use a app called Habit List,
which I've talked widely about.
- Yeah, you're five days in a row on Play or Make.
- Yep.
- That's pretty good.
- Yeah, and if you track, I don't remember how, oops.
That's not what I was looking for.
(Charlie laughs)
Where's my data? Oh, there you go.
- Oh, nice.
Hold that up to the camera,
that's real good. - Yeah, I don't know.
So those are all the green, or in this sense,
we're black and white.
This is all the light gray,
(Charlie laughs) highlighted areas are.
So I didn't play on the fifth of September.
I didn't play on the eight of September
and the 13th, but all the other are clear examples of play.
- Glass half full.
- Yeah. - You got a lot.
- There you go. (Charlie laughs)
And so A, thank you.
- Thank you! I'm thrilled!
- B, that has been a massive catalyst for me
I think creatively.
And it is the sort of the lightness
with which it reminds you to live life.
And it's both overt and sort of subtle
that when you're playing and you can laugh intentionally.
Remember, this is not just, did I have fun?
And this is like did I say,
you know, I'm gonna make something.
Or I'm gonna goof off with my friends,
even if it's just for 30 minutes.
Or I'm gonna send five friends funny Internet videos
or do something that is goofing off.
It has widely transformed my life
So I've been wanting to have you on the show since then.
So, A, thank you for making time.
- Thank you.
Can you tell a quick story about a time
where it really stood out to you?
- Sure. - That you did that?
- I'll use Home Run Derby as an example.
- Nice.
- And it was not too long ago.
Again, I've been doing this now for,
I think I've been tracking data for about two years.
But this was something that was really recent.
And it was Home Run Derby,
and I use Home Run Derby and I say,
oh, yeah, my friend Charlie wrote this book.
And when you're thinking about playing,
for Charlie it was Home Run Derby,
something he did a couple times a week
when he was a kid growing up.
And the philosophy's really simple.
You look at what brought you joy as a child
and you go do that as adults.
And you feel like you're getting away with something.
You know, it's light and you bring work
and those two things together.
And so for me I had been tracking my data for two years.
I was realizing that I was about to play
in a celebrity softball tournament
In Safeco Field in Seattle before an event.
So there were like many thousands, about 10,000 people.
And I was with the Macklemores and the Seahawks.
And I don't know how I ended up in this side.
A friend of mine puts the charity, it's a charity event.
And I was thinking to myself, like, oh, man.
I'm gonna have to hit a baseball
in front of 10,000 people. (Charlie chuckles)
And I haven't hit a baseball
since I was like 15 or 18.
So I should probably do that.
And it was like, wait a minute.
Like this is literally, and I'd been, again,
I'd been tracking my habit for a long time,
playing-- - I've been training
for this moment. (laughs) - Yeah.
But I was thinking like,
I'm gonna actually do Home Run Derby.
So a close friend of mind and COO of Creative Live,
a guy named Mak Azadi, who's an incredible human.
He make the operations and all the day-to-day stuff happen
at Creative Live.
An incredible operator and great human.
His son is on a baseball team and they have a coach.
And after we got out of work at Creative Live
and we went and picked up his son up.
And I saw his baseball coach.
And I was like, "Is it kinda weird?
"I got this thing coming."
I used the game as an excuse to play Home Run Derby.
But I asked if I could hire their hitting coach
to take me to a park and pitch softballs to me
for an hour while I just roped them
all of the place. (Charlie chuckles)
And it was, again, I used the ruse of I got this
celebrity softball tournament, I don't wanna
embarrass myself. - (laughs) Right.
- But it was, in part, just absolute joy.
- Yeah.
- So the guy was awesome.
He got me back into my little hitting,
my groove that I was in when I was a younger human.
And it was unbelievable.
It was the most fun I've had
in an hour-- - That's awesome.
- In so long.
And I use you example, literally as a thing,
like I'm gonna do that.
And I used money to pay for it.
I don't own 100 baseballs and a bunch of aluminum bats,
and I don't have a friend who's good enough to throw
strikes over and over and over,
So I can just rope them all over the field.
But I did it and it was incredible joyful.
I will say that when I actually got to the game,
I had one single little grounder.
And I had a line drive shot that was going over the fence.
And it was literally caught at the fence
by Jay Buhner a major-- - Ah, that is an honor.
- A major-- - An honor.
- Like a major league center fielder is now retired
and was part of the charity.
And he only got it off a dead sprint.
I was like, "Really?
"Jay Buhner, you like ripped off my home run."
(Charlie laughs)
But this point is not the result, the point is the play.
And so--
- That's so cool.
- Thank you for sharing that.
- What a trip, man.
That blows my mine.
- It was literally Home Run Derby.
- Oh, that's so cool.
I mean, you write a book and you're like,
"This is such a pain in the ass."
And then you hear stories like this years later.
And you're like,
"Oh, so glad I did that." - Absolutely worth it.
Absolutely worth it. - Yeah, that's amazing.
I love that.
- Well, what I'd like to do now
is talk a little bit about,
is it fair to consider this an extension of Play It Away?
- Yeah, so in Play It Away, there's a section
that I loved, which was quotes from
our world's greatest workers,
that I'm showing, like,
No, these guys are the greatest players.
They love their jobs.
They thought as work as a game.
And they used it as a vehicle to have fun.
And I love that part of Play It Away
so I made it into initially like a slide share.
And that blew up.
And so I realized, oh, it would be really cool as a book.
And that's how it got started.
- So it's called Play for A Living.
- Mm-hm.
- You had a co-author here, Makenna Bailey.
- Yeah, she was the project manager.
- Oh, cool.
- It hit a point where I was like, "Look, you're co-author.
"This is so much work." - Yeah, your name's
on this thing,
and you love this thing. (Charlie laughs)
Quotes from people who found their joy in their work
and changed the world.
So give folks at home who are listening right now,
who can't see this, describe it.
It's basically a quote and then art from
how many different artists?
- 43 artists around the world.
- Contributed to...
This is a Picasso quote I'm reading here.
"Ever child is an artist.
"The problem is how to remain an artist
"once he or she grows up."
- Yeah.
- Steve Martin, "I loved to make people laugh in high school
and then I found I loved being on stage in front of people.
Peter Jackson, "The most honest form of film making
"is to make a film for yourself.
This great, this is like eight bit emoji
right here. - (laughs) Right.
Yeah, so I tried to have the artist match the personality,
to kind of capture the essence of the person.
And, really, I mean, you see that Peter Jackson quote.
I feel like the most honest form of writing
is to make a book for yourself.
And I definitely made that book primarily for myself
as just as a reminder.
And just something to turn to throughout life.
And it ended up just being a really fun
group (chuckles) project.
- Oh, it's beautiful.
And as we were joking,
I think before we turned the cameras on.
Like maybe it was after the (chuckles) camera was on.
I forget when we turned 'em on and started recording,
'cause we were talking before,
but like that your friend's kid stole the book
and won't give it back.
Like kids that go no...
It's real, right?
If they love it and it's beautiful.
- Yeah.
- Congratulations on that.
And what's the best place for people to pick that up
if they wanted to pick, that and or Play It Away.
- It's on Amazon now.
It just went on Amazon.
So you can get it there.
Both books, of course, I launched that on Kickstarter
earlier this year while my wife was pregnant.
I had to make the decision.
I was like I either have to come out with this thing
before the kid or after.
I don't think it's gonna happen if it comes out
after the kid, so I gotta launch this thing now.
So April was one of those tough months.
- Yeah, well, before I let you go,
I wanna pick your brain on a handful of personal things.
'Cause I like talking about work and theoreticals
and all that stuff, but couple of sort of tactical
questions that you can answer for the folks at home.
You mentioned, speaking of family, and having a child,
hey, congratulations.
- Thank you.
- You're three months in?
- Three months. - You look great
for a three month,
like a father-- - (laughs) Thank you.
- Who's has got a three-month-old.
- Back on drugs. (laughs)
- So number two is
but we were talking about you've got a thing
that you do with your family.
And it's a derivative of like a family board meeting.
I thought that was fascinating.
I thought folks at home might find this interesting.
So can you share that?
- So my friend Jim wrote a book called Family Board Meeting.
I actually met him at an American Dream U event.
Which is he takes his family out once a quarter,
does this special day.
And I thought, every quarter?
It needs to be more frequent than that.
So my wife and I do what we call a Marriage Meeting,
where we compartmentalize our finances,
ways we can--
- The responsible--
- Yeah, the responsible adult
things that come up. - Tactical pieces of marriage.
- Yeah, so we set an agenda basically throughout the week.
Like here are all the things that we wanna cover.
And then we, every Sunday, we'll go somewhere kind of fun
and somewhere scenic.
And then we'll just have this meeting.
And sometimes it's 45 minutes.
Other times it's been three hours
where we're just talking about stuff.
- What are some of the things that are on your agenda?
- Some of the things on our agenda--
- It doesn't have be private.
I'm not asking to share like-- - (laughs) Right.
- "We gotta work on that personal problem."
- Something deeply personal.
We've had ideas.
Like right now, we're researching,
just learning about co-working spaces,
'cause we're just both interested
and both of us, like,
she's an interior designer for Gensler,
which is this huge architectural firm.
She's done work for Facebook.
Like I was working at WeWork earlier in the year.
And she's like, "Oh, yeah, I worked on that."
And so both of us are just learning about it
because we want to and to see potentially
there could be some businessing there.
But one of the cool things that came out of it was
we were talking about finances a lot.
So we've been doing this for about nine months now.
And we realized the problem with some of the spending stuff
that we kept visiting was we just don't have a dashboard.
We don't see that number throughout the week,
like at any given time, you have to go out of your way.
So we mounted an iPad in our kitchen that has Mint up
24 hours a day so that we can always see what the number is.
- Your finances.
- Yeah, we can always access it and it's easy.
That, alone, has just like diminished our stress, right?
And most people will avoid financial stuff,
because they're like, "Oh, it's a mess.
"I just don't wanna look at it."
But you can't make it better unless you're confronting it
on a daily basis.
- So you talk about family meetings and vacations
and finances and lists of stuff to do.
And you compartmentalize that.
And it allows you to enjoy the rest of your week.
- Enjoy the rest of the week, yeah.
'Cause stuff will come up and we'll just be like,
"Put it in the meeting."
- The meeting, the meeting.
- Yeah, 'cause if you get a bill.
If you get a traffic ticket or something.
And you ran through a red light
and it's couple hundred bucks.
You're like, "Oh!"
(laughs) If you don't wanna fight about it,
just put it aside, save it for the dedicated time.
- Cool, that's a beautiful technique.
Thank you for sharing that.
What are you doing for play now?
Let's like list a couple of things
that are maybe new to you.
We talked a lot about Home Run Derby,
but something different.
- Sure, I mean--
- Give some folks at home some ideas.
- Right now, honestly, one of the big,
it sounds so ridiculous, but when I wake up in the morning,
I change my daughter's diaper.
And the look on her face when she sees me every morning.
Is like, "Oh, my gosh!
"This is the greatest!"
Like, she's so happy to see me.
And so starting out my day is immediately me just--
- Wanting to be with her. - Playing with her, basically.
I have dogs.
We play together.
But I host a thing.
I've done this for the past few years,
a group called The Recess Project.
Which is basically like we go to Zilker Park in Austin.
Have you been to Zilker?
- Uh-uh.
- You have to go, man.
- All right. - This is my number one
favorite place in Austin. - Okay, my next trip.
I'm a plane here in three hours, so my next trip.
- So it's this big beautiful park,
you can walk around barefoot.
It's so fun.
And so every other week, I'll go there with friends.
And I've got a Facebook group now that
has swelled over the years.
It's not that big, but people come,
they show up and we just play catch.
We play soccer, we'll--
- The Recess Club?
- The Recess Project. - Project.
- Yeah, so it's just a dedicated group to...
It was really to hold me kind of accountable and--
- To keep playing.
- Yeah, so that's the big one.
- Books, inspiration?
What's on your hot list right now?
And I know it doesn't have to be the best or the things,
like, again, keeping tactical and what's inspiring you
right now. - Yeah.
What's inspiring me?
So I've been doing a podcast--
- Oh, cool.
- For my job called The Author Hour.
And I just talk to authors a couple times a week.
And I just get to...
Like I basically get them to deliver their book
in conversation form to me,
which has been really expansive and wonderful.
Or it's expanded my thinking in a lot of areas.
And that's been really wonderful to me, personally,
because I always have a long reading list.
And so like Non-Violent Communication,
the book has been on my to-do list forever.
And then I got to talk to a guy
who runs the Non-Violent Communication Center in New York.
Because the guy who wrote the book has passed away.
So just being able to talk to authors has been awesome.
- Can I share that Non-Violent Communication
was something that was on, my wife and I have the list
of just a couple of goals each,
we try and keep it pretty tight each year.
And we made that, reading that book, the seminal book
and putting that into practice as a daily habit.
And something that we were gonna, at the end of the year,
we look back and say, and it has been hugely impactful.
- Sure.
- Just the fact there's a couple key principles
in Non-Violent Communication.
It's like observe without judging,
so you're looking around it
at like why I am I feeling like this?
Why is this happening?
Help me with this one, the second one is stating.
Now the third one is human needs.
The second one is--
- I can't recall.
(laughs) - Yeah, no, no,
I wanna do this.
- Yeah.
- It's in my, let me look at my.
The wording is important,
'cause I wanna make sure to get it right.
Watch this here, one second here, this is how close it is.
Berp, the word is right...
Okay, so identify and express your feelings,
not your thoughts.
If you're saying, "I think that every time you do this."
A, it's about you, so I'm using the word you
and I'm saying what I think versus if you say,
"When you do this, I feel scared."
There are like actual,
like, "I feel afraid.
"I feel hurt, I feel upset, I feel nervous."
And make it about you as opposed to the other person.
- Totally.
- Or you're observing and I observe that when this happens,
yeah, when you assign a feeling,
what it does and you put it on you,
the other person is immediately more disarmed.
Their hackles aren't up.
Then the third step is saying what, understanding rather,
what human need it's violating.
Like, I need to feel salfe.
"When you do this thing, it makes me feel scared.
"And when I feel scared, I feel unsafe.
"And so next time, could,"
And then you make a request,
that would make your life better
in some way, shape or form.
"So next time if you have some criticism for me
"could you say it in a different way?"
- So with you and your wife, is it pretty fluent now?
- Actually, it's not.
And so, it's September, we've been working on this
for nine months.
And it's still very intentional.
We walk one another,
and what we find when we're in a disagreement
or we're observing something else,
and we hear the other person going down a bad path.
We're like words matter and words matter deeply
in your psychology, so how can you change this
and frame it in terms of non-violent communication.
So it's still an exercise that we feel like we're doing.
But so powerful.
And I've used it in expressing how I feel.
It is so...
It helps me feel better and I think it contributes
to vulnerability, which increases connection.
And in observing other people who are struggling with that,
I've used it in a professional setting.
And it's completely disarmed what would historically
have been a really volatile situation,
where you start saying like, "I think something.
"I think you're pissed."
To me, that's like, A, thinking is not feeling.
And so when you're saying you're thinking,
you're ascribing that to somebody else.
And then when you're saying things like pissed.
- And you're saying, "I think, therefore I judge."
- Yes,
there's judgment in there. - Rather it seems like.
- Or I'm observing that.
- Right, yeah.
- Radical, but I think the point of your ability
in this podcast to connect with cool, interesting people,
I just wanted to share that Non-Violent Communication
is like a side recommendation.
And this is--
- No, it's a good one.
- It's a technique that, what's the author's name
that wrote the book?
- Marshall, I forget, Rosenberg, I wanna say.
Or Rosenthal?
- Rosenthal, yeah.
- To add to what you're talking about.
So communication during hard conversations,
volatile conversations.
Have you read Never Split the Difference by Chris Voss?
- I see Chris in my social feed.
I follow him and I've read secondary materials,
but I haven't read the source text.
- The book is pretty mind blowing.
- Yeah?
- Yeah.
- That's Split the Difference.
- Yeah, so his background is he's obviously
the FBI hostage negotiator.
So he's got some (chuckles) crazy stories.
And his breakdown of these types of conversations
was, I found, extremely helpful as well.
- Sweet.
- What about you?
What are you reading these days?
- Well, just Non-Violent communication
is something that's-- - That's the main one?
- I think I'm putting that into practice.
I've always got three or four books.
Brené Brown's
most recent book. - Yeah, what's her next one?
- Braving the Wilderness.
- Braving the Wildnerness.
- It's, you know, the wilderness has always been
this great metaphor for solitude and adventure
and so many things that we think about
like on the Hero's Journey.
(bell rings) Ding, ding, oops,
that was bad.
And what she's done with Braving the Wilderness
is helped people to understand that it's not
that you are in the wilderness,
it's that you are the wilderness.
So what can you do to stay true to yourself
and be wild rather than allow yourself to be in the wild,
like wild heart, what does that mean?
Awesome book.
Perennial Seller, Ryan Holiday,
it's about making work that is meaningful to you
and has lasing power rather than a flash in pan.
Like how to do Facebook posts,
or something like that. (Charlie chuckles)
Versus, like, what does it mean to turn 30?
'Cause there's always someone who's turning 30,
and so how can you make this a classic?
Like communication, people are always gonna communicate.
So Non-Violent Communication, for example.
So those are a couple of the hot ones recently.
- Cool.
- Thanks for asking.
Grateful to have you on the show.
Thank you very much-- - So grateful to be here.
- Play for a Living and Play it Away,
two amazing books you should check out.
And what's the place they can follow you?
You're just @CharlieHoehn?
- CharlieHoehn.com.
- H-O-E-H-N.
- H-O-E-H-N.
- There you go.
And anywhere else you wanna send folks?
Amazon to get the books?
- Yeah, go on Amazon and get the book.
That would be awesome.
And if you're a company that needs an annual retreat gift,
boom, hit me up. - It's beautiful.
Play for a Living, beautiful. (sirens wailing)
The sirens, they're coming.
- Is that the signal that the show's over?
- (laughs) I think so.
Thanks for being on the show, Charlie.
- Thank you so much.
- Appreciate it.
- This is great.
(funky electric music)
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