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Elbow: Magnificent (She Says) - Duration: 4:27.
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Videocast: Tracking next chances for rain - Duration: 2:47.
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José Altuve on Hurricane Harvey's Impact on Houston Astros' World Series Win - Duration: 4:42.
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Rock N Roll Marathon Weather Well Above Normal - Duration: 5:42.
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వ్యాపారంలో ఉద్యోగంలో ఇబ్బందులు లేకుండా విజయం పొందాలంటే | Mantra for Business Growth |Bhavishya Jyoti - Duration: 4:12.
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Milliárdok nyomában - Új sorozat október 28-tól - Duration: 0:53.
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Use these 4 Ingredients, Say Goodbye to the Stones In The Kidney And Bladder!! - Duration: 1:08.
Use these 4 Ingredients, Say Goodbye to the Stones In The Kidney And Bladder!!
1.
Celery.
Celery is one of the useful herbs for kidney diseases.
You can take the benefits of celery as vegetable, juice and celery tea.
Celery seeds are also great for kidney stones.
Celery helps to treat and prevent kidney stones.
2.
Pomegranate.
Pomegranate contains astringent property that makes it more effective remedy for kidney
stones.
Pomegranate juice and seeds are both help to get cured from kidney stones.
3.
Kidney Beans.
Kidney beans are very useful to treat bladder and kidney stones.
Take some kidney beans and slice them.
Then bring them to boil for 30 minutes.
Strain the water and allow it to cool.
Drink the liquid at least twice in a day to get the best result.
4.
Water and Other Liquids.
People with kidney stones should take at least 8 to 10 glasses of water daily along with
regular foods.
Plenty of water reduces uric acids from the urine.
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The Secret of My Love | 我男人的秘密 | 내 남자의 비밀 - Ep.25 [SUB : ENG/CHN/2017.11.03] - Duration: 34:11.
Excuse me.
Sorry.
Did you just apologize?
I'm a doctor myself but I'm still shocked
that an accident could change a person this much.
I know how you feel.
I shouldn't have done that.
Okay.
I accept your apology.
Since I accepted your apology, I should forgive you.
Want another drink?
You're not Jaeuk, are you?
Why are you so shocked?
I just feel like I'm with someone else, not Jaeuk.
That sounds like you've fallen for me.
(Episode 25)
Hey, you two.
Did you start without me?
Hi, Inuk.
I thought the three of us could have a drink,
so I called him out.
I hope I'm not interrupting.
Inuk, would you take Haerim home?
I think I drank too much. I should go.
Okay. Go ahead.
Bye.
Okay. Bye.
Don't mind me and go home.
I can take a taxi.
You seem to be minding me.
Thanks.
Get home safely.
I quit the company.
I heard.
What do you plan to do?
I plan to leave Korea once I settle things here.
Inuk.
You know the situation I'm in. How can you say that?
I can't tell my dad right now that I'm leaving with you.
I know
it's hard for you.
Then please, can't you leave me alone for a while?
I have no intention of burdening you.
Don't feel burdened
by your promise to come to me.
Promises are meant to be broken anyway.
What do you mean?
I'm leaving regardless of what you do.
You know your own feelings,
so do as you will.
Bye.
When you say you'll leave regardless of what I do,
do you mean you'll give up on me?
If you say you'll leave alone,
that means you're letting me go.
Is that the best you can do?
Haerim.
What do you really want?
What?
Jaeuk says he'll back off
but you're panicking.
You can't make up your mind.
Must I repeat myself?
Because of the bomb he dropped,
I'm in no position to cater to you.
My dad thinks I made him do that.
I'm not telling you to cater to me.
I'm asking how you truly feel.
Truth, truth!
Who cares how I truly feel?
Reassuring my dad is more urgent for me right now.
I understand.
Go in. It's late.
You're home late.
Who's he?
He doesn't look like your fiance.
You've been going out often lately.
Shouldn't you stick by my mom's side as her nurse?
I went to my mother's grave for her death anniversary.
I asked madam for permission. Don't tell me
I need your permission as well.
Please cut back on personal activities.
Cut back on taking my mom out as well.
I'll take her out.
She acts nice like an angel in front of her parents.
She's completely different when they're not around.
Whenever I see Haesol, I want a daughter too.
Can't I have a baby without a guy?
What?
Say that in front of mom, why don't you?
Here.
They say it's good for the fetus and to calm you down.
What is it?
It's so pretty.
You don't have money to spend on this.
Actually, I had bought it for Daera.
I felt bad for being so snippy.
But what's the use when she's not pregnant?
You use it.
Don't worry about her.
Think about how she acted pretending to be pregnant.
It makes me so angry when I think about that.
I'm sure it wasn't intentional.
I know.
Good night then.
It felt different.
It definitely felt different from Jaeuk.
Since I accepted your apology, I should forgive you.
Han Jiseop, what are you thinking?
You're not Kang Jaeuk.
You're Han Jiseop.
Snap out of it.
Just a minute.
What is...
What happened?
I broke the cup by mistake.
Make sure it doesn't get infected.
Okay. Did you want to talk to me?
Your daughter was released from the hospital.
Is that so?
Thank you for letting me know.
I told you in case you keep worrying about them.
You may think you're going to die,
but with time, you live. That's life.
The same goes for your family.
Luckily, you have only one child,
and the mom is a survivor,
so they'll be fine.
They will.
Good night.
He doesn't seem to know yet about the second child.
He won't stay still if he finds out.
It's me.
Gosh.
That crazy wench.
How could she lie about being pregnant?
What now?
You can't sleep?
How can I sleep right now?
I'm going to die early because of that brat.
Imagine how much she'll abuse Seora
now that Seora is pregnant with her second child.
If the parents can't understand their child, who will?
Imagine how she felt, that she made up such a lie.
Did I push her to make money
or pressure her to get pregnant?
What made her make up such a big lie?
I feel like Daera started becoming that way
ever since we brought Seora home.
You and I always compared her to Seora
and complimented Seora.
She must think
she lost her parents' love to her.
If she wanted us to compliment her,
she should've done things we could compliment.
Don't bug her too much.
I'm sure she feels terrible as it is.
My gosh.
That's right.
An unemployed man can't afford a baby.
But still. Of all the things to lie about.
How could she con me about being pregnant?
I can't forgive her.
No.
Maybe she got an abortion
and said she lied about being pregnant.
That's right. That's why she kept getting mad at me
and asked if we had to have the baby.
She put on an act because she didn't want the baby!
Why Seora?
Why Seora instead of me?
Only 1 out of 100 get menopause in their 30s.
Why do I have to be one of them?
Something went wrong.
This was my baby, but it went to Seora by mistake.
What is that? What did you just hide?
What? I didn't hide anything.
It's nothing.
What's wrong with you? It's nothing!
Move!
Daera,
what is this?
What?
Have you lost your mind?
How dare you yell at me?
Tell me what this is!
You know what it is.
It's a sonogram.
I was right.
Tell me the truth.
You kept saying we shouldn't have a baby.
You got rid of the baby without telling me, didn't you?
And then you lied that you lied about being pregnant,
didn't you?
What are you talking about?
This is our baby's picture.
You got an abortion and did this to our baby!
Seonghae, are you writing a novel right now?
You may have fooled the others but you can't fool me.
I can't forgive you.
I won't forgive you!
I want a divorce!
What? Divorce?
Fine, let's do it!
Let's get a divorce!
I'll give you a divorce!
Don't live like that.
What did you just say, you punk?
What did you say?
Say that again! Go ahead!
Huh?
I only gave you an advice.
Why are you so upset?
Gosh. Your vein is going to pop.
Why you...
What's your deal?
Who are you that you think you can talk like that?
Who are you?
I'm unemployed.
Unemployed?
An unemployed punk
was giving me an advice?
Can't an unemployed say if something is wrong?
Being unemployed isn't a sin.
Can't an unemployed man not even have kids?
Doesn't an unemployed have the right to be a dad?
Why you...
You're a complete psycho.
I was hoping someone would cross me today.
This is your lucky day.
I'll kill you and go to prison.
Are you insane?
I'll kill you too.
You're lucky you met me today.
What nonsense.
You think people don't die easily...
But I learned from experience that isn't true.
Unless you want to be a convicted murderer,
control your fist and your temper.
♪ When mommy calls me, it's Piggy ♪
♪ When daddy calls me, it's Froggy ♪
♪ When my sister calls me, it's Prince ♪
♪ Lalalala lalalala ♪
♪ Which is my real name? ♪
♪ I don't know, I don't know ♪
We're here.
Listen to your teacher,
and don't fight with Bongcheol.
Don't cry and eat well.
That way my little sibling in your belly
can grow to be healthy.
Jiseop,
are you watching?
I'm going to stop hating you.
You gave this precious life
as a gift to Haesol and me.
I'm going to do my best. Just watch.
I'll make Haesol
and the baby happy.
Hello?
The flyers are out already?
Okay. I'm coming.
Seora is pregnant with a second child?
Oh, my gosh.
Jiseop may have died and gone,
but he did something big before he left.
It isn't that simple.
Do you know who paid off your debt...
And Han Jiseop's debt?
You said it was someone who owed Jiseop.
I didn't want to tell you this but I have no choice.
The truth is,
Han Jiseop had a woman.
What? A woman?
That woman who had been watching him for a while
paid off that huge debt.
Boy, have you got it wrong big time.
I know him.
He's my son but he only has eyes for one woman.
He's smart,
but he has the worst taste in women.
That's why he couldn't get free
from that useless wife of his.
Do I look like I'm joking?
No, that's not what I mean.
You don't want to upset her.
That person paid
Han Jiseop's mother's huge debt for him.
How would she feel if his wife
has his second child?
I'm concerned she'll change her mind and make you
pay her back for the debt as well as the money...
She gave you to live on.
What?
Give Us A Call errand service is back.
Give Us A Call has returned.
We're Give Us A Call. Give us a call anytime.
That looks like blood.
This is...
That place I came to before.
Who is it?
Who is it?
Who...
Oh...
Where do you live?
What are you doing here?
What do you want?
I remember now.
You're the person who helped me, right?
When I was arguing with a drunk person.
Why leave out picking up your coins at the hospital?
You're right.
I owed you twice.
So? Did you come to thank me?
No, that's not it.
Are you okay?
What do you mean?
I was distributing flyers in the area
and saw blood in the hallway.
The bloody trail ended in front of your door.
And I thought I was a busybody.
Here's another one.
It's not about being a busybody.
You're bleeding. How did this happen?
Are you okay? Doesn't it hurt?
Did you see a doctor?
Oh, no.
It's bleeding a lot.
Can't you be gentler?
Do you have a hook for a hand or something?
You're a bigger crybaby than you look.
How did you hold it in
instead of going to the hospital?
How did this happen, anyway?
Looks like you were cut by a sharp object.
Were you in a fight?
My arm grazed a broken bottle.
Are you part of a gang?
You see in the movies, how they break bottles
and use them as weapons in gang fights.
You don't look it but you lead a violent life.
You seem old enough.
Why do you live like that?
Do you always nag so much?
I said I could do it myself but you insisted.
Now are you lecturing me?
It's done.
Go to the hospital. It may get infected.
Disinfect it twice a day too.
Looks like you're out of gauze too.
Buy more along with more ointment. Okay?
Are you going to stay here?
Okay. I'll go.
Thank you very much for helping me before.
Sorry it took me so long to thank you.
That's right.
Call me anytime if you need anything.
I can deliver medicine too, so call me.
Okay. Take care of yourself.
Wait a second.
Thank you.
I didn't do this for money.
Nothing in life is free.
Plus, this is your specialty.
Here. Take it.
I really didn't do it for money.
Good-bye.
Hello, mother.
You'll come home for dinner, won't you?
It's your birthday, isn't it?
You remembered.
Don't be late.
Haerim is coming as well.
I'm sorry but I have an important appointment,
- So I can't say for sure. / - Really?
I'm a little disappointed.
You never forgot my birthday before.
Okay.
Come if you can though.
Okay.
(We do various errands)
(Deliver a gift for me)
Hello? Give Us A Call.
- It's me. / - Mother.
What happened?
Where are you?
The office?
Okay. I'll go there now.
Okay.
I'm in front of Yang Miryeong's place.
I don't think she's back.
I met with that woman who said she was her friend.
And I couldn't get anything out of her.
I'll look into a few more things while I'm out.
I'm positive something happened to her.
You said you know a cop.
Can't you ask for help?
We need to find the guy she was seeing,
his fiancee, or any sort of lead.
Those people may know where she went.
Fiancee?
I think she said something about a fiancee.
And that she needs to find a lead.
Buy yourself some clothes.
You don't seem to have anything nice to wear out.
I still have some left over from the last time.
Thank you.
If she finds out that I'm the fiancee,
she won't sit still.
Hello?
Did you look into it?
Jang Danok's mother was
a housekeeper at Park Jisuk's home 40 years ago.
She has no criminal record,
but she did work at a police station.
Police station?
Mother.
Why didn't you come home?
Sit down.
Where have you been staying?
You weren't at the sauna.
Whatever.
I hear you're pregnant.
How did you know?
Are you or aren't you?
I am.
I'm pregnant with my second child.
Are you out of your mind?
How are you so reckless?
Sorry?
How can you raise the baby without a husband?
Will the baby raise itself?
Mother.
Haesol is young. Think it's easy working with 2 kids?
I know it won't be easy.
But I'll try.
What?
Hey. You must be relying on me
but I can barely support myself.
Please, I'm begging you.
It's hard raising a baby without a dad.
Just focus on raising Haesol well.
You need to meet a new guy and get remarried.
It's easier with one child instead of two.
Mother.
This baby is a gift your son Jiseop left us.
How could you say that?
Imagine how I feel saying this.
I'm saying this for you and Haesol.
As you know, it was hard enough
for me raising Jiseop alone.
I know.
I know too well from experience. That's why.
I'll pretend I didn't hear that.
Please leave.
Hey!
Are you really going to be like this?
I said it's for you.
If you really care about me, please stop and leave.
No way.
You can't give and take it back.
That is unacceptable.
A woman?
He acted like he was so in love with his wife.
Does that mean he was hiding
a girl on the side?
Gu Mihong went in hiding again?
That means she failed.
Monitor Jiseop closely. Make sure he doesn't go
anywhere near his family.
Was the issue with the high school girl
yesterday resolved?
Yes.
I agreed to pay the bills as well as compensation.
What happened?
Did you really
have them blame him for negligence
and cover up the accident?
I think I made the wrong decision
in the interest of protecting the company.
It was for the company?
You didn't know a decision like that brings
the company more harm?
I was too inexperienced in handling accidents.
I'll admit my mistakes
and set right what was done wrong.
Of course.
You shouldn't cover up wounds.
If you cover an infection,
it'll keep rotting
and get out of control.
I understand.
"I'm sorry. I'll do it again."
He isn't saying that.
Jaeuk.
You're much worse
than I had imagined.
You're dumb and cunning.
Watch how I change you.
Hello, mother.
Bring your grandfather and come home early.
Haerim is coming home because it's my birthday.
Okay, I will.
Are you sure?
Are you sure your mom is searching for Yeorim?
- Yes. / - Why didn't you tell me sooner?
I only recently found out.
I thought the meds were working but she's at it again.
Please be understanding.
It isn't her fault that she can't let go.
Don't you know your mom?
With her obsessive and fanatical personality,
she'll drive us mad.
Dad, please!
Haerim?
I had a friend at the precinct get me
a copy of Yang Miryeong's recent call history.
And your daughter's number showed up several times.
What? Haerim? Why?
This is my hypothesis,
but that rich guy that Miryeong was seeing...
I think it was Kang Jaeuk.
And that fiancee was Haerim.
What?
Then that friend that Haerim mentioned
was really Yang Miryeong, who is missing?
I can't say for sure,
but it's too much of a coincidence.
What?
Her parents live in the U.S.?
Jin Haerim.
Did you lie to me?
It wasn't her that hurt Miryeong, was it?
Haerim. Call Haerim here. Haerim!
Honey.
What are you doing home at this hour?
- Please excuse us. / - Pardon?
Okay. Sure.
What's wrong with you? What are you looking for?
What are you doing?
You still hide this in your pillow
and are looking for Yeorim?
Honey.
Let me explain.
How long has it been?
When did you start looking for Yeorim again?
Honey, I think I found Yeorim,
but I think Haerim did something to her!
What?
You've really lost your mind this time.
Honey, please. Please believe me. You have to.
I almost found Yeorim,
but Haerim got rid of her.
I'm sure Haerim did something
to our Yeorim again!
Tell me. How long has it been?
When did you start looking for Yeorim again?
It hasn't been long.
I'm sorry, honey. I won't do it again.
I knew you'd worry...
- But I was wrong again. / - Please stop!
What's wrong with looking for her missing child?
It isn't her fault.
Imagine how desperate she was
to look for Yeorim in secret?
Please be understanding, dad.
Fine.
I'll let it go this one time.
But...
You end it yourself.
Honey, please.
Please, mom.
I...
Don't want to send you back to the hospital. I mean it.
If I see that again...
I won't stand for it.
Thank you.
Thank you, mom.
For letting go of Yeorim yourself.
You should rest.
I was invited to Jaeuk's
for Ms. Wi's birthday.
I'll come home early.
Hello, Give Us A Call.
Can you deliver birthday flowers?
Of course. Tell me the flowers you want and
price range and I'll get some accordingly.
How old is the recipient?
A woman in her late 50s.
I'd like you to choose a gift as well.
Can you do that?
Of course, I can.
- Is it ready? / - Yes.
One more please.
(Happy birthday, Ms. Wi Seonae, from Inuk)
(The Secret of My Love)
Be careful. You'll get hurt.
I'll do it.
Who are you?
I'm sure it's hard
but hang in there.
Yang Miryeong. Why did you lie?
You found that out too?
Are you threatening me?
You look very exhausted. Very exhausted.
Today, I want to be consoled by you.
Must you do this?
I don't want to be controlled by you anymore.
Why are you standing there?
What happened to your scar?
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Nightcore - Call It What You Want (Taylor Swift ) - Lyrics - Duration: 3:13.
Nightcore - Call It What You Want
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Test Run Drag Bike Yamaha LC 135 on the Street 201m - Duration: 1:58.
Test Run Drag Bike Yamaha LC 135 on the Street 201m
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Herzogin Kate: England zweifelt an der Schwangerschaft - Duration: 1:21.
For more infomation >> Herzogin Kate: England zweifelt an der Schwangerschaft - Duration: 1:21. -------------------------------------------
Here's How To Eliminate Gray Hair Naturally Without Exposing Yourself To Chemicals! - Duration: 2:16.
OUR WEBSITE : http://justhealthrelated.com/
Here's How To Eliminate Gray Hair Naturally Without Exposing Yourself To Chemicals!
The body is exposed every day to factors that cause some degree of damage.
For example, an activity as simple as jogging (if not done properly) can cause some issues
to the bones, however, the body has its methods to repair that damage.
Regrettably, we cannot say the same about hair and the damage it suffers.
Hair is incredibly delicate and even a change of weather condition can impact it, but this
is not the only thing.
Like any other body organ, hair needs to receive the nutrients needed to be beautiful and healthy.
For that reason, we can say that healthy hair is the combination of good nutrition, age,
care, and proper climates and hormone balance.
Nevertheless, there are several methods that can help us keep it beautiful and silky easily.
Even if we cannot combine the previously mentioned factors, there are ways which help us have
very beautiful hair.
A lot of them are related to natural remedies, as is the case of which we will speak to you
now.
Ingredients:
Ginger: (We will need 1 root of this plant) Olive oil (1 tablespoon)
Honey (1 tablespoon) Preparation:
Preparing this home remedy for your hair will not be difficult at all, to the point that
you will be surprised.
We only have to grate the root of ginger then extract all its juice.
Finally, put the liquid into a container beside the other two ingredients and mix very well.
That will be enough to have our home hair treatment.
This substance should be applied to the hair once a week with damp hair previously.
You should let it act for about 40 minutes.
As time goes by, you can use a bathing cap, so you do not mess up your clothing.
Lastly, we will clean our hair as normal with our preferred shampoo and lots of water.
OTHER KEY POINTS THAT GINGER CAN BRING TO OUR HAIR ARE:
It activates the blood irrigation in the capillary leather
Accelerates hair growth Thicken hair strands
Robust hair Eliminates dandruff
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-------------------------------------------
Step by step strawberry crochet for application - Duration: 17:10.
Hello guys are welcome to another video lesson in class today we will start
the execution of this strawberry crochet that he was working around the wire Anne in color
red and green color used needle No. 1.75 mm to run it also used
a tapestry needle and a tailpiece scissors before we begin the lesson
today I wanted to ask you who are watching this video lesson if they like
share content on your Social Networks click there on Canal in and you liked it
You are coming here on our channel and not still I knew so you can receive updates
video lessons to enroll in the Channel and not fail to click the little bell that appears there
on the screen to activate the ok personal notifications good we begin our video lesson
today then. We will first start running
Strawberry'll put one here ringlet the needle and I will work here seven little chains
one two three four five six seven will needle count from a necklace
the second here I make a low and following will work a low
in the direction of the base point to total six low points and five here last
six will rise now two little chains will turn the other side in the same base point
I work low and will work on Following a low point in the direction of
each basis point to reach the last where we'll work here last
two low points on the same base point making a total of seven lows remembering
that in the first row were six and in the second here there were seven will rise now two little chains
I will turn the other side at the same point I do a low base and following
I will work towards a low each basis point to reach the last
where we'll work two lows in the same base point then I came here
the last low point two making a total of eight lows will rise two
little chains'll turn the other side in the same basis point work low and the
Following I will work a low point in direction of the base point to get
the last low point of his career coming here the last point we will work two
Lows in the same base point reminding in the first career were six points
the second lower seven and eight in the third here on Wednesday nine lows will rise
two little chains'll turn the other side and I'll start the next race the same
way we did the other we will work that way for several career to reach
the last in which we will work with sixteen Lows I will finish this part and
ever return. I arrived in the last row where I worked
sixteen lows, I will turn the other side remembering that here we were increasing
points and now we will reduce skip a base point will enter the second
and cast off the needle point with a very low I will climb a little chain at the same point
I do a low base and following I will work towards one lows
each basis point to reach the penultimate Score
I came here on the penultimate point I will leave remain one here at the tip will turn the other
side'll skip a base point in the second I will insert the needle and fasten with point
very low'll climb a chain on the same I base point and a low point following
I will work towards a low each basis point to reach the other
side in the penultimate I came here in the penultimate left one
Here at the tip will turn the other side jump a base point will next arremato
with slip stitch climb a necklace I do a low point on the same basis
and I will work towards a low each basis point to reach the penultimate
point across I came here on the penultimate Here left point a point in turn the tip
Furthermore arremato point with a very low and we will work in other careers
same way we did here and we will work to remain four points down at the end I
I will finish this part and already return. I arrived late in the career where I finished
here six lows remembering that every career was decreasing one point at a
side now we'll work around Strawberry lows will come up here one
chain on the same base point make a low will next career here
the first point I make another low next career at another point tip
down we'll work lows in every row in the first point always working
low this way you are seeing arrived here in the middle will do more
a low total of two and the next career low point in the last point of the
end this way we'll work all back when you get in the end we will work
two points in the same place made two points at the tip and each base point here
I will work low and will work that way all around the career to
Finally the other side here will work hiding this thread to not show all
on low all around when you arrive the tips will work two this tip
and also when you get here at the end will cast off with slip stitch will cast off
the wire cut and will hide in the strawberry inside out and I go back with you to start the next
which is part of the leaves. Well folks here I finished running the
Strawberry as you can see already arrematei yarn with slip stitch and cut and hid
the back part noting that the ends We work two low points in each point
base and rounded to stay I took a Light pulled at each end around Strawberry
to stay more or less like the strawberry ok staff we begin our sheet
I will now take the green wire we will put here one ringlet sequence and the needle
I will go up eight one two three little chains four five six seven eight we tell a
From the chain on the second needle I will make here a low point this out will
work another six to finish the cord current working here in the last
last little chain made a low two three four five six seven made seven
Lows we will now enter the needle in the same spot base and we will cast off
here with a slip stitch will rise again eight little chains one two three four five
six seven eight'll tell from the needle a necklace make a point in the second
down and work six lows in each point here is of little chains or in
each base little chain to total seven I did one two three four five six seven got
Here in the seventh introduce the needle in the same arremato place and with a slip stitch
Go up again eight one two little chains three four five six seven eight will tell
From the second needle in a necklace I start my first low will work
six coming in last with arremato a very low point and finalize the three parts
the three leaflets that we will work and I'll be back with you.
Here I finished the third central part of leaves and arrematei here at the end with point
I go here a very low front part of the second part of the sheet going well here last
I will insert the needle point and will fasten here with a very low point came here
in the first part where we started in the first basic point here we'll work a
low will be in the second half point high in the following three points we will
work one at each base point a point so high are a high point two three
made the three highlights will next I point through loud and finalize point here
with a low point now go up a couple of little chains I am going across the first base point
I do a low point in the next half point high in the three following a high point in
direction of each base point a high point Two Three on the penultimate here we work
middle high point and a low point last I made it come here at the end right here in
arremato center with a very low point now we'll start working on another part
similarly working a low middle high point after three highlights
half point high low point we will rise two little chains and we will work on the other
beside the same manner as we did here in the first leaflet will work the second and third
and so I finished I return to you. We finish here the three leaves as you
can see here at the end did a low and now I will cast off in the direction of the sheet
below right here in the center with a point very low done so now we will work
the cable will go up eight one two little chains three four five six seven eight will tell
From the second needle a necklace I low and I'll work points
low toward each little chain of base to total seven lows always
thus a low point in the direction of each base of each point that is little chain
I came here last make my last low ending the cable here I will cast off
the same place where arrematamos before us begin the cable with a very low point
arremato done it again pull the thread and I will now take the scissors and will cut
getting ready our sheet this way I I will hide the thread below and she will stay
after ready in the strawberry this so I have two strawberries ready as
you can see is pretty cool and beautiful you may be doing sewing ago
that invisible point or may be using also universal glue Circle it is
very good you can wash the part she did not off ok good guys I hope you
enjoyed this video lesson now a big hug to everyone and until next time.
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Free Thoughts, Ep. 211: The Implications of Behavioral Economics (with Peter Van Doren) - Duration: 58:06.
Trevor Burrus: Welcome to Free Thoughts, I'm Trevor Burrus.
Aaron Powell: And I'm Aaron Powell.
Trevor Burrus: Joining us today is Peter Van Doren.
He's a Senior Fellow at the Cato Institute and editor of Regulation magazine.
Welcome back to Free Thoughts.
Peter Van Doren: Thanks for having me.
Trevor Burrus: Earlier in fall or about two weeks ago, three weeks ago, Richard Thaler
won the Nobel Prize in Economics.
[00:00:30] That's what we're going to discuss today, Richard Thaler, and what he did for
economics, so I guess the first question is what do people think of when they think of
Richard Thaler and why was he important?
Peter Van Doren: Richard Thaler is associated with development of what is called behavioral
economics, and it is … The adjective 'behavioral' is meant to contrast this brand of economics
with what is typically taught to freshmen in Econ 101, which is neoclassical economics.
[00:01:00] First, let me describe briefly what neoclassical economics is and then describe
how behavioral differs from it.
Neoclassical economics in its purest theoretical form is an elegant mathematical exercise in
which there are preferences of consumers and they're called utility functions, and they
have a function form; they have a mathematical shape [00:01:30] to them.
Consumers also have budget and therefore a budget constraint.
Firms seek inputs in the market at market prices and firms maximize profits.
You throw all these together and you say, "How can firms maximize profits and consumers
maximize utility at the same time and what does the result look like?"
You can do this, all on paper, using calculus [00:02:00] and you come up with an answer.
That answer is always referred to, by traditional economist, as Elegant.
What they mean by elegant is this pure love for mathematics as an exercise and then the
question, of course, is whether what this has to do with real people in the real world.
That's always been a contentious issue.
Going back to Milton Friedman, Milton Friedman is famous for saying, " [00:02:30] Well, the
real world acts as if it knows all of these mathematics.
Even if we ask the people and they don't know it, they actually are compelled by market
forces to act as if they know all these math are maximizing because if they don't, they
would lose all their money, all right" This claim that if you're not maximizing profits
you would fail as a firm and if you're not maximizing [00:03:00] your own welfare as
a consumer you would realize it over time through learning and would use your money
more carefully so as to have more of it to get the stuff that you want.
Behavioral economics is rooted in psychology and it originally started as a critique by
social psychologists of economics.
This has as much to do with the sociology of academic conflict, as anything else.
Economics, [00:03:30] to be honest, to lord over the social sciences in the university.
Trevor Burrus: Because they have math?
Peter Van Doren: In part, the math.
They argued that other parts of the social sciences didn't have, "A rigorous theory of
behavior i.e. math."
The sociology and psychology talked about people but economics really modeled behavior.
Trevor Burrus: Well, I want to ask about this because [00:04:00] you said Neoclassical,
but is Classical economics that way?
In Thaler's presidential address he says that Adam Smith seemed to think this way about
people and it strikes me as odd that anyone ever assumed that people were that robotic,
I guess, as for lack of a better term that that was the way to do economics was to assume
essentially perfect utility functions, robotic predictable behavior.
Before the Neoclassical revolution, if that's you want to call it, Adam Smith [00:04:30]
and other earlier economists did not think that way about people.
Peter Van Doren: I think that's fair to say, I think Thaler's typology of the break of
neoclassical economics from something called Classical or whatever term you want to apply,
I think that's fair.
The real push towards what we call neoclassical economics is actually … It started with
Pareto and Marshall, but the real drive [00:05:00] occurs after World War II with Samuelson and
his famous textbook and the so called welfare theorems of economics and things like that.
Again, the behavioral critique starts out as a critique coming from social psychology
but then … And Daniel Kahneman won the Nobel Prize earlier for that portion of it.
His colleague, Amos Tversky was deceased [00:05:30] and therefore could not win the award but
was also a co-author with Kahneman of all of this stuff.
Thaler is later and adds his own arguments to it.
Basically, the critique is the following that people make systematic cognitive errors that
are not consistent with the maximization and figuring everything out mathematically framework,
that is the heart [00:06:00] of neoclassical economics.
Now, let me give you … Each of these cognitive defeats has a paper associated with it and
para-papers.
They rooted in experiments done with undergraduates.
People should know that behavioral economics is very related to and developed from what's
called experimental economics where don't go out and study firms and consumers but you
actually [00:06:30] take, typically, undergraduates, have a controlled groups: an experimental
group, read them a series of instructions and see if they figure things out in the way
that neoclassical economics suggests.
Each of these defects has a name to it and I'll give you three: one is the endowment
effect.
On previous discussions we've had I've mentioned Ronald Coase and the Coase theorem.
The Coase theorem says, "It doesn't matter what the distribution [00:07:00] of property
rights is to start out the game."
As long as you can freely transact and you can trade these things it doesn't matter where
you start out, will always end up at an efficient result, but the distribution of wealth will
be different because we started out a different place.
The endowment effect says the willingness to pay for something versus the willingness
to accept for something i.e. do you have it and then how much would demand to give it
away.
[00:07:30] In the Coase theorem, that's the same as how much are you willing to pay
to get it from someone else.
If those two prices differ: if the willingness to pay and the willingness to accept differ,
then distribution of rights and where you start out the game affects efficiency where
you'll end up.
The endowment effect papers argue that the Coase theorem doesn't work.
Trevor Burrus: On the endowment effect, is that, and I'm going to get more into this
later, [00:08:00] unless … Let's still to the endowment effect here.
Is it … When we call that irrational or when we call it just something that makes
Coase not work the way that people thought, you're making …
Peter Van Doren: Because, I mean, maybe people just …
Trevor Burrus: Is it okay to care more about losing something than gaining it?
Aaron Powell: Yeah.
The loss hurts more.
Trevor Burrus: Yeah.
Peter Van Doren: I don't want to use … I'm uncomfortable … Just me personally, I don't
[00:08:30] want to traffic in the terms rational or irrational and rather stick to … For
the Coase theorem to work as a theory of outcomes, the willingness to pay and the willingness
to accept must be the same.
If they're not, then whether railroad has to pay the farmer to pollute or the farmer
has to pay the railroad to stop, then those two initial assignments of property [00:09:00]
rights will change how much pollution there is in the result: in the equilibrium, so whether
one wants to label this …
To get neoclassical to "Work," the willingness pay and willingness to accept have to be reasonably
close to each other.
Otherwise, you'll have endless political fights over who has rights because those rights,
[00:09:30] everyone knows, will, in fact, go a long way towards determining the outcome.
Aaron Powell: Does work here require mathematical exactness to the predicted outcome.
We could say that, yes, people might have slightly more loser version and so they're
going to take … It's going to hurt them more they're willing to give up slightly more
to prevent a loss than they would be to get an equal gain, [00:10:00] but if that slightly
is only, really, slightly, then could we still say that the Coase theorem works even though
on the tiniest margins it maybe off a little bit but in the aggregate, on the whole, it
still is going to come out awfully close to what it predicted?
Peter Van Doren: That is an empirical question, so in the real world, yes.
I mean, that's … Your errands arguments are all possible.
Once the results are not [00:10:30] exact, then we're into utilitarian land where we
have to evaluate outside this whether the results differ enough so that they matter
for whom.
Then, that's i.e. if you're an environmentalist, this, you might say this matters enough so
that I want the right to have clean air to start with, I think it is … I do not [00:11:00]
want to have to pay for it, and I think it's … Then they would introduce the term 'morally
wrong or something' … They would introduce some philosophical adjective to say, "By golly,
I think this status quo that I'm on is a whole lot better than the one you're proposing because
…" We can avoid … See, in Neoclassical you avoid all those arguments if it doesn't
matter at all, but once you introduce the possibility of it mattering, you then are
[00:11:30] into, let's call it an A-scientific world, where we have to have a back and forth
of how much all of this matters or doesn't matter.
Trevor Burrus: Did the Coase theorem … Maybe this is a typically ignorant Trevor question
about the economics, but does the Coase theorem, as I understand it, even as it was formulated
and went about, does it ever really work in the real world because you also to populate
zero transaction costs, which is not a thing in the [00:12:00] world.
Aaron Powell: Right.
Trevor Burrus: I mean, Thaler makes this point … This is one thing about Thaler that's
always confusing, I couldn't figure out how much he's actually adding to the discipline
because either at neoclassical people were passed through in this frictionless universe
physics problems, which Thaler makes this point in his presidential address comparing
it, you have a theorem in here that has no transaction costs, so that's frictionless
universe and then you add in noise and then you see how much you can control for the noise.
Then, you make a comparative [00:12:30] analysis about, "Well, generally speaking we want people
to be able to trade to make property right to be able to make themselves better off."
There are going to be some difficulties there, but as Aaron pointed out they might be on
that better.
I guess I'm just trying to ask why did he want ever think to Coase theorem describe
reality because it just doesn't.
It describes like a computer program about people being able to make transactions instantaneously
without transaction costs but it doesn't describe reality.
Peter Van Doren: A good question.
The … [00:13:00] We haven't got to this yet but we're getting to it, which is there's
underlying political disagreement lurking in our questions which is in a neoclassical
world, if everything works out the way the theorem say, then the role for government
… Then the possibility of collective action, "Improving" welfare of anyone is zero.
Trevor Burrus: [00:13:30] It would be a perfect well-oiled machine of which all optimal … Everything
went to their highest and best use and all optimal … Can be … To optimal and everything
on those lines and government would have no …?
Peter Van Doren: Well, and then the only role for government is not to make markets more
efficient but simply distributional i.e. who ought to have rights and why and should we
ever tax some people and give it to others.
As opposed to claimed that, if I do this: pass [00:14:00] this law or put this tax in
or put this regulation in, I can improve welfare or make people better off.
That language is much less possible in a neoclassical world or more limited whereas in a behavioral
world where people are making errors all the time, the possibility then for better informed
government regulation to improve welfare is very large.
That … Even though I'm trying [00:14:30] to keep that out of the current discussion,
that's actually lurking beneath all this discussion.
Aaron Powell: She said there were three of these cognitive biases that we're going to
talk about, so had the endowment effect.
Peter Van Doren: The second is hyperbolic discounting or translated: this is making
errors from a conventional accounting economic point of view between choices in the distant
future and choices in the near future and choices in the present.
Trevor Burrus: [00:15:00] You described, and I remember we were hanging out socially, you
said that that's what drug addicts do.
That's the economic term.
Peter Van Doren: Economic term for what drug addicts do is hyperbolic discounting.
Trevor Burrus: Which means right now the pleasures of this is what I really need and anything
else in the future is just irrelevant.
Peter Van Doren: Yeah, and I'm not going to worry about the hangover.
Trevor Burrus: Yeah …
Peter Van Doren: Well, it's actually a little more … hyperbolic discounting is not getting
the near future versus [00:15:30] the distant future correct.
It's not just present versus, it's actually caring about next month a whole lot more than
caring about five years from now, and then present value of normal econ and accounting
framework that leads to weird results: odd behavior.
Well, I'll talk about policy examples; we'll get [00:16:00] to that but … The endowment
effect is whether distribution effect sufficiency, this discounting effect is probably construed
is there's a lot of policies that are alleged to help consumers save more and do things
for the future.
A lot of climate change discussion hinges on this distinction as well.
The third cognitive error …
Trevor Burrus: Just to clarify, you mean that [00:16:30] if people who are trying to get
us to change our behavior for climate change are saying that, if we prefer a new gas- car
in the short term without looking at the 100 years in the future, then we're hyperbolic
discounting.
Aaron Powell: Yes.
Peter Van Doren: We're getting things …
Trevor Burrus: We're drunk on oil.
In other words, we're drug addicts for oil basically.
Peter Van Doren: Yes.
Trevor Burrus: Okay.
Peter Van Doren: The third cognitive error is called optimism bias.
It is the belief that bad things happen to other [00:17:00] people but not to you.
Trevor Burrus: True, in my life so far.
I think it will continue to be all good things are happening to me.
Peter Van Doren: It's also called 'young people'.
Its real world alleged result is the lack of demand for insurance.
Lots of … From a neoclassical point of view, people seem to under-insure.
They do not buy products that [00:17:30] exist that would allow them to buy the mean of an
outcome and reduce the variance that might occur.
Trevor Burrus: This is just in terms of … We're trying to figure out why you people would
buy the right amount of insurance without running actuarial tables on themselves.
I mean, how much do I need if … At 16, how much insurance do I need?
What is … How does someone …?
Aaron Powell: … Economist.
Trevor Burrus: Yeah.
Actually, they say, "Here's the chances [00:18:00] you're going to get hit by a bus."
Peter Van Doren: The terms economists use is consumption smoothing: that is the goal,
our goal whether you know it or not is to smooth consumption over our lifetimes, and
so there's …
Trevor Burrus: You mean that every human being's goal?
Peter Van Doren: Yes.
In a neoclassical framework, one wants to reduce the variance and consumption over time
i.e. here's an anomaly from that perspective.
The income of people in the United States goes down drastically after retirement.
[00:18:30] They say, "What?
How come you're willing to live this way and then suddenly you have this steep cliff?"
You should consume less when you're younger, save more and smooth consumption so you don't
have to go through this heartbreak of a loss of consumption during retirement and so on.
Aaron Powell: My question with these, you refer to them in particular economics; people
refer to them as errors.
Then, [00:19:00] when we get to the sellers: a partner and Cass Sunstein, the two of them
wrote the book "Nudge" which is about, then, how do we engineer policy to, in this case,
preserve freedom whilst nudging people to not fall prey to these errors, right?
We can get to … I'm sure we'll talk about that, whether that works and what the problems
with it are, but the very notions of them are errors, it seems to me that the thing
that makes them [00:19:30] errors in the mind of both the neoclassicals and the behaviorist
is that they differ from the economist's notion of how a person ought to behave.
Peter Van Doren: Not ought to, is.
Remember, neoclassical is a positive theory: an elegant, and then as Trevor says unrealistic
theory of behavior.
The whole unrealistic part, when you're within an economics' department of the old school
in [00:20:00] the way that I was taught, pretty much fades away.
I mean, I was looking at econ lectures online this morning in preparation for this; what
are people taught now.
I mean, you're taught to understand calculus, math and maximizing having … You're taught
the words 'elegant result', you learn the Arrow–Debreu theorem which says, if we have
complete markets for everything and people do everything right, then [00:20:30] welfare
is maximized, etcetera.
Then, you learn deviations from that later on.
Even though it's a positive theory of behavior, there is this underlying 'odd' kind of lurking
but technically odd isn't part of it.
Aaron Powell: Right, but when talk about something like hyperbolic discounting, we're looking
down our noses at the people who … You just said why do people … People seem to get
this cliff when they hit, [00:21:00] and what they would prefer is this, why don't they
prefer this, or they're like people don't take into account risks in the right way and
so they're not buying the right amount of insurance.
These are all things that we're saying this is incorrect behavior.
I don't think … We haven't really ... It sounds impossible to talk about it without
instilling that value claim into it.
I guess, so the question that I have is why, at the [00:21:30] very beginning, why should
we accept the economists' notion of human rationality or utility?
Maybe people deviate from this stuff simply because the economist got it wrong.
People actually … They do prefer stuff now over the future and that's perfectly okay
and there's no good argument against it.
It just clashes with the economist view of how people … Economists aren't like the
rest of us.
Trevor Burrus: Let me add.
I concur on [00:22:00] that which is just ... It seems like the neoclassicists want
us to be squares, right?
I mean, basically we don't go skydiving or we're going to jump our motorcycle across
a ditch or a smoke or eat a burger.
I mean … Is he irrational in neoclassicist model?
Peter Van Doren: Let me start to respond.
First of all, it's hard to …
Trevor Burrus: Did we ask the same question or do we have different questions?
Peter Van Doren: [00:22:30] Different.
Trevor Burrus: Okay, because this is part of our confusion and this is why we bring
Peter on.
Peter Van Doren: Let me go to Aaron's first … I was actually going to deal with this
at the end rather than …
Aaron Powell: Okay.
I apologize.
Peter Van Doren: Because Trevor wanted to get there which is the goal of either neoclassical
or behavioral to actually just implement people's preferences?
Allegedly, certainly, neoclassical is.
[00:23:00] Behavioral says it is because cognitive errors prevent people from implementing what
they really want to do because they don't know how to it.
They don't know how to do present value discounting calculations correctly, so we need to educate
them about how to do that and to create default conditions so that they're steered into that.
Then, to [00:23:30] change Aaron's question into fundamentally, so what if … nudge,
right?
The most famous experiments around are not of what I've just described, but rather there
is strong empirical evidence that no one disputes that the default conditions in 401-K plans
in the workplace have a profound effect on whether people save or not during their work
time.
Neoclassical [00:24:00] people originally said, "But even if you make people save more
in the workplace, they may undue it with credit cards outside the workplace," so net savings
behavior might not actually improve or increase.
There's a study now of people in Denmark.
Denmark, because it's Nordic and they keep total records on everyone's life.
Trevor Burrus: It's like Gattaca.
Peter Van Doren: Yeah.
The Danish can be studied extensively.
They did a nudge-fact [00:24:30] and they made the default that you're involved in workplace
savings behavior.
Then, they could study all their other banking and financial records and they showed that
savings did increased.
At least for the Danes, the nudge to alter the status quo from being out a system to
being in a retirement system did increase savings behavior.
But then this paper said, at the end, what if people really don't want to save?
Which is what [00:25:00] Aaron's asking.
Aaron Powell: Yeah.
Peter Van Doren: In other words, if the world isn't full of Sheldons and Peters, it's full
of different kinds of people.
Trevor Burrus: What I'm thinking about is also when neoclassical came with the Samuelson,
I'm thinking about leave it to Beaver, all right.
I bet more, in June, saved exactly the right amount of money that economists will tell
them they should save.
Peter Van Doren: Well, there's a very middle class, middle brown, middle …, Everything
to this.
[00:25:30] Your cultural critique says this doesn't know anything about sex, drug and
rock and roll or something to that effect.
Allegedly, when we teach neoclassical, it allegedly has, at its heart, just preferences
so thus it is allegedly accommodating to both your critiques that, in fact, [00:26:00] the
author that comes to mind actually in smoking behavior in Kip Viscusi work which we've talked
about before.
Economists …
Trevor Burrus: Well, he was doing how much representative life cost?
Is that what …
Peter Van Doren: Cost per life saved, but a lot of his work is also on smokers: do smokers
understand risk?
Are smokers irrational, are smokers under/over informed, [00:26:30] should we regulate their
… All these questions that you've asked and we could go right to smoking.
Viscusi surveyed smokers and he asked them: how much do you think the life expectancy
of the average smoker?
He specified it as remembering a packer day or something.
I mean, some average amount of smoking for smokers.
He said, "How much is your life expectancy reduced on average given the day that we have
in the United States?"
[00:27:00] The average answer among smokers was 20 years.
In the data, the actual result is somewhere in the order of four to six years, if I'm
remembering correctly.
A very large difference.
We concluded smokers seemed to be well informed.
If anything, overestimate the risk of premature death and they continue to smoke.
Trevor Burrus: Which means smoking must be amazing to you.
[00:27:30] I mean, that even implies if you took their preferences into account, if you
think it's more dangerous, and that it is on average and you're paying New York City
prices for cigarettes so $15 a pack, then smoking must be incredible to you.
Peter Van Doren: Correct.
Aaron Powell: Unless you're marred in like a runaway loser version.
Trevor Burrus: You mean you don't want to lose them?
Aaron Powell: You don't want to lose them or you think it's going to be terrible, if
I stop this.
Not that it's amazing that [00:28:00] I do this but the pain of quitting is going to
be extraordinary, or whatever the effect nicotine has but there's evidence so nicotine is a
cognitive enhancer, but that cognitive enhancement wears off pretty quick in the sense that the
cognitive boost you get from it, over time, you're really just operating at normal level,
but if you don't have the nicotine you operate at way below level, so maybe the awareness
of that.
Trevor Burrus: This would be hyperbolic discounting?
[00:28:30] Peter made a face, by the way.
Peter Van Doren: No, I just have …
Trevor Burrus: … Addicted, right?
I mean, what would Richard Thaler say, I mean, do you think about the smoking argument, the
Viscusi?
Peter Van Doren: That's a good question.
I don't think …
Trevor Burrus: Or what would be the general behavioral critique of that?
Peter Van Doren: Jonathan Gruber, we did a two-part series …
Trevor Burrus: The American, the ACA, healthcare designer guy?
Peter Van Doren: Yeah.
Jonathan Gruber, Healthcare Economist MIT and Kip Viscusi [00:29:00] debated in the
pages of Regulation some 10, 11, 12 years ago, I'd have to go look it up on this issue.
Gruber came up with the term 'Internality' not 'Externality'.
See, Viscusi went on to argue that smokers seem to know the risks and still behave the
way they do and, thus … And then he went on, "Is there an externality?
Do smokers cause the rest of the society money?"
He concluded, " [00:29:30] No, because they do die sooner.
They don't collect Social Security to the extent that healthy people do and, thus, the
taxes they pay over their lifetime, net of the benefits they receive.
In effect, he argued that smokers subsidize non-smokers in the American political economy
which most listeners of this may find that incredible but that's a pretty agreed up … Well,
accepted result from [00:30:00] Viscusi.
Then, Gruber went on to say, "All right."
Viscusi knocks out the externality discussion.
He then invented the term 'Internality': a fancy word for you're messing up in the way
that you and Aaron are asking me which is you can't possibly want to smoke because if
you knew how it would be when you were old you would never do this when you were you,
is nature of this argument.
He came up with a dollar of a cigarette, [00:30:30] what's the trust cost to a person: him or
herself of smoking when they're young given what they'll experience when they were old?
I will put the side-on with this podcast.
Trevor Burrus: Opening the show notes, yeah.
Peter Van Doren: Then, Tom Firey, the Managing Editor of Regulation who has a Masters degree
in Philosophy wrote, "Who's the more valid preference: the younger self or the older
self?
Now, if discounting involves cost to you in the future [00:31:00] versus benefits to you
in the present, what's the appropriate philosophical status of the older self versus the younger
self if they could even talk to each other which, I guess, is that what you're asking
me?
Trevor Burrus: I mean, to some extent.
I mean …
Aaron Powell: Or the older person simply … I mean, if you're smoking during your youth,
going to rock and roll shows, having lots of sex and all that maybe there are problems
later, but you still get to look back on your youthful days and memories of them so we end
up in a total [00:31:30] recall style argument.
You're paying up cost from memories that you're then going to be able to enjoy ongoing.
Trevor Burrus: It just seems there's a big, slippery slope here with old people will tell
young people all the time, if we could go Rick & Morty time machine and say, "Okay,
seven year old Trevor is going to come back and tell me I need to exercise, put sunscreen
on learn to play the cello [00:32:00] is because …"
Aaron Powell: This is being recorded, correct?
Trevor Burrus: Exactly … 3,000th episode when we were that old we'll go back and listen,
but I mean, "Hey, I can learn to play the cello right now."
That would probably give me great pleasure in the long run.
It's like if your parents are still kids we'll make you learn the piano lesson because you're
going love playing piano when you were older.
Peter Van Doren: Yeah.
The problem with that is that had seven year old Trevor [00:32:30] done all of those things
instead of all the things that seven year old Trevor did, then nearly 40 year old Trevor
would be totally lame.
Trevor Burrus: … Might be live, for example.
I don't want to be lame.
Peter Van Doren: I'm fairly lame.
Trevor Burrus: Does it make sense to make this old/young.
I mean, is that … That goes to this other good question to get back to the subject.
The other question we're just having a more revealed preference [00:33:00] theory basically
in the behavioral econ critique.
Peter Van Doren: I'm sure.
Let me …
Trevor Burrus: It seems very difficult.
This, of course, a lot of critiques have been offered to.
Peter Van Doren: I mean, when economists do math, it's very precise.
When we switch to economists using language to describing or me using language to describe
what math is or isn't doing, [00:33:30] we're switching to a different realm.
As I said earlier, economists … In general, economists don't like language.
Well, traditionally, economists don't like language; they like math because math is … It
is clear what is going on.
When we try to use words to describe what it is [00:34:00] the math means … You ask
me these question and then there's this big, long pause and I'm trying to figure out if
other economists who are listening to this, would they agree or disagree with how I'm
trying to describe this in language.
Boy, I'm worried that they'll disagree because I'm getting a little aspect of it wrong.
Trevor Burrus: No, I wouldn't worry about that because I think that what we are trying
to smuggle in what you've [00:34:30] implied … Politics of the matter, right?
Aaron Powell: Any of Peter's errors in this hour of conversation are the fault of Trevor
and me.
Trevor Burrus: Exactly.
We'll put that disclaimer, but I think we're also trying to bring up these inherently political
parts of this which, if you do in this mathematical econ you …
Peter Van Doren: I think if everyone were on and stand both sides, that's lacking.
I'll give you some quotes.
[00:35:00] I mean, Thaler was President of AEA and had a presidential address in January
of … It was published in the AER and I'll give you some quotes.
This is his rip-roaring defense of behavioral economics.
He basically tells neoclassical traditionalists: it's over, you've lost.
Get the eff out of my way.
No, I mean, I read this and I talked to my colleague, Jeff Miron, and I said, "Wow, this
[00:35:30] not a professor with a pipe talking about his life's work, this is a we-won, you-lost,
go away.
I'll give you some quotes.
He argues there are critiques of these experiments; remember I told you these results come out
of experiments, the critique within neoclassical is that if you change the instructions in
these experiments a little bit and you allow some learning and you don't have undergrads
doing this in a one-shot framework, the anomalous [00:36:00] results will go away.
People don't get trapped in these cognitive errors.
When asked, in this presidential address, Thaler says, "What do I think of that argument?"
Answer, "Learning takes place for little things but it doesn't for big things."
Where he talked about, "Big things in your life where you only get it to do it once or
twice, there's no possibility of learning."
For him it's buying houses, financial issues and retirement and savings because you only
get to realize you didn't save enough once.
[00:36:30] He emphasizes that high stakes once or twice in the lifetime things people
mess up a lot and that's what he's worried about.
Let me give you a quote, "No one has ever gotten rich convincing people not to take
out unwise mortgages."
That was in his presidential address: the OA financial crisis and then the mortgage
… I mean, that's his one-sentence discussion of attributing everything that happened not
to any [00:37:00] of that nuance things that professors are usually famous for, but basically
people screwed up, this is evidence, we need to stop people from screwing up because firms
get rich when people screw up.
Trevor Burrus: It's a very anti-market attitude.
I mean, to say the least, I could get rich off of that.
I mean …
Peter Van Doren: I started to read Shiller and Akerlof's book.
Trevor Burrus: The Phishing for Phools which is just completely anti-market in another
way.
Peter Van Doren: Oh my goodness, I was going to read … Oh, I did it and then [00:37:30]
I was going to review it for Regulation and I realized "Oh my goodness, they are …"
Trevor Burrus: On the warpath.
Peter Van Doren: On the warpath, and I thought of sloppy disingenuous it wasn't in keeping
it all with what I thought of Shiller's work other than this end is columns in the New
York Times which I always find to be interesting and thoughtful.
This book was a left-of-center rant [00:38:00] in the way that some of our stuff is right-of-center
rant.
Nobody is well-served by either of these things, in my view, but I was, again, taken aback
by how … When … Outside of the journals, when allowed to show the colors, my goodness,
I was sad to see that some of my colleagues' views of left-of-center economics seemed to
be confirmed that they weren't in it for this [00:38:30] elegant theory of behavior that
I have been describing rather people mess up, firms make them mess up, they need help
and government's going to give it to them.
Trevor Burrus: It's highly paternalistic, and their attitude to our people seems to
be pretty insulting.
Aaron Powell: This makes think of … I, a few months ago, attended a Liberty Fund symposium
on … We nudge and then a bunch of academic [00:39:00] responses to it.
one of the things we discussed there was this story that Thaler tells of a party in … It's
told in Nudge where he would have students over for dinner, and he would set out a bowl
of mixed nuts ahead.
Then, it was like he would notice people didn't eat much dinner because they filled up on
nuts.
He saw this as … This scenario; these people, they're here for dinner and they're irrationally
eating the nut, and so [00:39:30] he took away the nuts.
He put them out for some period of time and then just snapped them back from hid Dinner.
He and Sunstein present this as like and they were so happy.
They were like, "I could control myself and it was so nice f you to take those nuts."
The whole time … I'm thinking, "They were just being polite."
They all were like, "What the hell is this guy doing?
Why is he being a jerk?"
Then Thaler answered them, they're like, "Well, he's our professor; [00:40:00] we're going
to be nice.
We're going to tell them he's being a jerk."
But just this notion of the paternalism so baked.
They were thanking me for taking this food from them that I had given them because they
couldn't control themselves around it.
Trevor Burrus: Nut time is over.
I can see him coming in and being, "That's it, guys.
This is for your benefit."
Peter Van Doren: I want to show that … Even though I think and admit that the last five
minutes is actually underlying a lot of this dispute, I actually want to raise [00:40:30]
above that.
Trevor Burrus: Sure.
Peter Van Doren: And both side our sides and try to stick to a kind of …
Trevor Burrus: Figure out what we can gain from this …
Peter Van Doren: Yeah.
Whether there's … I mean, should we listen to any of this, and if so what and what should
we do about it.
There are some anomalies that I find troubling and I'll give you one … In Thaler's address,
he gives the following: he said there was a closed-end mutual fund with the sticker
symbol CUBA, Cuba.
It rose dramatically on 121414.
[00:41:00] The day that Obama announced normalization of Cuban relations even though this mutual
fund owned no stocks related to Cuba nor could it because there are no Cuban stocks to own.
This financial anomaly persisted for a year in the market.
I mean, I take things like that seriously that it does appear that [00:41:30] the prices
of things do seem to vary from their fundamental sometime in financial markets, and that can
persist for a long time.
Now, I don't come to an easy.
Therefore, we should and then fill in the blanks to have the SEC make sure something.
I think that there are things out there, well, one is under-saving, that, I take seriously
and two, these [00:42:00] other financial anomalies where the literature is full of,
again, closed-end mutual funds whose components are well known and yet the aggregate is different
than the components.
How can that be?
That makes no sense.
Again, financial markets are priced by professionals that are smart; that are etcetera.
Trevor Burrus: Is there anything different about the Cuba thing than say "tulip mania?"
Peter Van Doren: No.
I mean, it's just …
Trevor Burrus: We've known [00:42:30] that for a long time, right?
As we talking before we started recording, maybe because I'm not really rooted in the
neoclassical tradition but I'm more on the classical tradition for the Economist that
I read that the sailor seems to be … It's reminding us that …
Peter Van Doren: Well, we practice because we come from different intellectual traditions
in that part of my Libertarianism probably comes from … In my scholarly life and my
studies, I have concluded, [00:43:00] in most circumstances, in most times people get it
right and therefore they should be left alone whereas you probably come from a tradition
that says, "I don't care whether they get it right or not, I just want the people to
be left alone regardless of the outcomes."
Libertarians are vote strains, and those of us that are more utilitarian in our nature
get skirmish when there is evidence presented to us [00:43:30] that people mess up in certain
circumstances and then we need to enter a utilitarian discussion of would fixing the
problem, if I can use that term, for those people so mess up with the rights of everyone
else who fine without help.
I mean, we can even talk about gun control as an aspect of we need to do things for a
small set of people that [00:44:00] kill a lot of other people for no reason but to actually
implement would so interfere in the lives of everybody who gets it right, if I use that
term loosely, that their boards maybe before that calculus were, as we might not be.
The beauty of neoclassical … I know earlier you said, "Well, we all know that it doesn't
work and Coase isn't right, but again, as Aaron said, "The closer that the reality [00:44:30]
is to that, the less scope there is for discussion of all these trade-offs that put us in utilitarian
where, who knows, where we know where we'll come out and we know where they'll come out,
and then it's just a political fight over and over again rather than … The beauty
of scientifically stating, "You don't need to worry at all ever" is that it just stops
the utilitarian's [00:45:00] discussion from even having to engage in that.
Aaron Powell: Then, is behavioral economics, as a school, basically the practice of identifying
through experiments or however else these cognitive biases or errors in thinking, and
then applying … Figuring out how to address them within an economic framework or what's
the … Is it simply an identification of problem school [00:45:30] or is there another
half of it that's then … It does something with those problems or revises theories to
better address those problems?
Peter Van Doren: It's not a revision of theory because you can't do calculus … I mean,
all the elegant mathematics that I just described which the heart of traditional neoclassical
that goes out the window once people don't do these things in a mathematically elegant
way.
Aaron Powell: Is the not doing those things, is that something that you can [00:46:00]
bake back in?
You're changing your utility function curves because now we know the people discount in
a different way?
Peter Van Doren: Then you have the possibility of many maximizing … I mean, if the functions
wriggle, if I could use that word, rather than having one peak, then we're multiple
equilibria land, and then the role for regulation or taxes or other human [00:46:30] agency
comes.
Aaron Powell: Let me ask the question a different way, then, is these inconsistencies from the
neoclassical model, are people consistent in their inconsistencies?
Is there a typical amount of hyperbolic discounting that we see or is there a typical and measurable
amount that we can plug into a function of loser version or do people vary a lot in how
far off [00:47:00] of the neoclassical mean line they go?
Peter Van Doren: They vary, and as I said, the results seem very fragile to the specific
research design, so the way the questions are asked and the choices that the experimental
subjects are given lead to quite a very set of outcomes.
Mostly, so far, this research agenda has been bashing away at Neoclassical [00:47:30] with,
usually, some policy therefore stuck on the end rather than, in fact, building up a new
economic.
It's been, so far, bashing away at the old one because the old one was so entrenched
and still is actually for purposes of most undergraduate teaching.
No one teaches behavioral to freshmen.
You taught it as something you learn after the fact, or it might be included as a little
addendum but, first, you got [00:48:00] to learn all the way we did it forever, and then
all of these is added on afterwards.
Depending on the department, it might be added on earlier or later depending on the ethos
of the place.
Trevor Burrus: In some of the situations, when the policy comes up; when policy prescriptions
that come out of this which is what Nudge is about, I think some of it has tried to
utilize, and one of Aaron's questions which was, if people are systematically not saving
enough.
I know [00:48:30] you have some things in your notes about things that do maybe on the
policy side, if everyone is generally not saving enough, then we should … This will
cast on the scene, we should have the default that they're saving, for example, is some
of the prescription that come of it.
Peter Van Doren: The default architecture is the term of art and it is pitched at us.
The good news is many people now take KEDO very seriously as an intellectually [00:49:00]
sincere place and thus, Thaler and Sunstein and many other behavior economists say, "Even
Libertarian should not object to altering defaults as long as the choice to change is
free and not transaction cost-filled.
All you have to do is go down to Human Resources or whatever it is we're talking about, you
have an easy, clear right that would [00:49:30] be articulated to you that you can sign here,
sign here and then be exempt from whatever it is we're Nudging you into.
The, "Even Libertarians should find that unobjectionable."
I could talk about …
Trevor Burrus: The nudge thing is interesting but I find it interesting that they think
it's not objectionable because … This goes back to this political point and just general
[00:50:00] human behavior point, when you're asking, "What should people be doing saving,
not saving?
Should they be planning for … Insuring themselves or planning for injury, they should not be
doing that.
If you had a government that was into nudging into socially beneficial relationships.
Let me give you an example, we recently had this big Hub-Hub I think it was a pin when
someone wrote a paper that said that getting married, having kids not early and later [00:50:30]
is all social indication … That's a good thing to do in your life.
Then, it becomes a question … That was huge explosion that she was being racist and all
these other things and classist.
Let's say the government decided to do that to us and say, "Well, really you're making
bad decisions by waiting so long to get married or you're making bad … We're going to have
a default of …"
Aaron Powell: We're going to opt you into a mate lottery.
Trevor Burrus: Exactly.
Opt you into a mate lottery, [00:51:00] and this is good for social welfare.
We have all the numbers, it's good for social welfare, or it's bad to have kids early so
we're going to give everyone a pill that sterilizes you from the ages of 15 to 25, and you can
opt out by the top to the beginning, it maximizes social welfare, we have all the data.
Is that the same argument and now it's really not Libertarian?
Peter Van Doren: It's analogous.
I would argue that; remember [00:51:30] I told you that we should suspend the extreme
right and left fear version of this discussion.
You have just put …
Trevor Burrus: I have flown some things up there but Eugenics did exist in this country,
so it has things where we control in …
Peter Van Doren: I tend to be calm and not worried about things, and I guess, if a big
avalanche were headed towards me I might not see it, so intellectually I can't [00:52:00]
ever see us going to what you describe, but is it a version of this?
The answer is, I guess, yes, but it's a long way from 401-K defaults hit the workplace
to unless you sign this form and have your parents and grandparents sign it, you are
married at 18 in an Amish ceremony or something, I don't see that coming.
Some people on the traditional [00:52:30] right would want that.
Trevor Burrus: True.
Exactly.
What can we learn from …?
Aaron Powell: Well, I think the concern to take it to less of an extreme than Trevor
has is that at its core that the policy prescriptions of Sunstein and Thaler and people are behaving
in ways that we don't think are good for them, and we can bracket the question of whether
that, simply, is imposing Sunstein and Thaler's tastes on other people who might not share
those tastes.
Peter Van Doren: [00:53:00] OJ evidence.
Aaron Powell: What we're going to do is, and Libertarians are to accept this is simply
raise the cost of doing the wrong thing by some amount, so it used to be that doing the
wrong thing was free because you to pay a cost-opt into the 401-K in terms of the time
it took to do that, but now we're doing to make it so that doing the wrong thing has
the cost of opting out that, [00:53:30] first off, that conceptually is simply exactly the
same thing as any other provision like, if I want to speed … It's against the law to
speed, but what that simply means is that they've raise the cost of speeding because
on top … The default is not to have a speeding so now we've got speeding and so I can pay-in
and at the extreme end they've raised the cost of murder by locking me in a cell is
the potential cost I might have to pay [00:54:00] for it.
Trevor Burrus: True.
Aaron Powell: I think the other concern at the policymaking level is simply that once
you are thinking that way, so it might be anything immediately wrong with saying, "Hey,
HR departments, you are to be opted out instead opt-in," but once you start thinking that
way, if people don't, then, respond in the right way or enough, you're like, "Well, let's
raise the cost a little more; let's make it more burdensome to do the wrong," so [00:54:30]
you had to put a slippery slope.
Trevor Burrus: Soft paternalism becomes hard paternalism pretty …
Peter Van Doren: Well, and it's certainly easier to go there if the behavior in question
is engaged in by a minority of people.
Smoking, in my adult lifetime, has gone from over 50% of adults to now in the 20% range,
depending on the state.
I read in the Times today that New York City … [00:55:00] Sorry, New York State has passed
legislation that include e-cigarettes in all existing legislation about banning where cigarettes
can be used, so wherever traditional cigarettes could not be used that New York State law
also now applies to e-cigarettes and it's like, "How could …" Whereas …
Now, in middle class discussions [00:55:30] that I have in Suburban dinner parties, the
answer of workplaces and whatever are just to announce whatever they are and then you
could choose to dine or not dine in places that do or not allow whatever."
"Oh no, we have to have … This has to be gone everywhere.
It's disgusting habit."
It's like, "I get that once 80% of the country believes one way and 20% does another, then
the 80% loses perspectives, [00:56:00] and so your arguments are …It's … Look …
I mean, the example against which where I said, "Don't worry is in my lifetime," we've
gone from smoking, binge what my parents did to smoking being the most reprehensible thing
that any middle class family could ever do, and if they went to a parent-teacher conference
and lit-up, the teachers would the social workers and have their kids taken [00:56:30]
away.
I mean, I can conceive of that.
Trevor Burrus: Rich Thaler and the Nobel Prize and economics, what … We've criticized a
lot in this episode, but what should we learn from it?
Peter Van Doren: Well, Libertarians believe choice is important and don't be lulled into
thinking that slight alterations of the freedom of choice are slight that you got to be careful,
and slight [00:57:00] can turn into a lot.
The smoking example that we discussed at the end seems to be an example of that.
probably, I don't think of defending that right to be different enough because, personally,
I don't smoke and haven't, and I've watch as it's gone away in my lifetime.
I'm glad it has because I used to go to college basketball games and you couldn't see the
court because of the smoke [00:57:30] and now you can actually watch the game so that's
a good thing, but for the people who do like to smoke their life is now hell and I don't
fully appreciate that enough in what they have to endure in scorn for the rest of us
and the state.
Trevor Burrus: Thanks for listening.
This episode of Free Thoughts was produced by Tess Terrible and Evan Banks.
To learn more, visit us on the web at www.libertarianism.org.
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