in this video I talked the Dave Fox about negative SEO unfortunately one of
Dave's sites was hit really hard with negative SEO and it had sort of a
cascading impact on his portfolio of sites so we talked about how to deal
with negative SEO we talked about the google disavow tool and we talked about
you know what you should be doing on a regular basis to hopefully prevent
negative SEO from impacting you so let's get over to the discussion now what's up
it's Doug here I'm sitting with my friend Dave how you doing in this video
we're gonna talk about what to do when your site gets hit with negative SEO and
sort of like the process to take and also a little bit about what happens
when your site gets hit with the manual penalty so right Dave this is a dramatic
topic and I've sort of been you know mentioning negative SEO on the YouTube
channel for a while and you know I used to not really pay much attention but in
recent times I've been paying a lot more attention so can you just give us a
little intro on how and why you have experience in this area well last
Christmas or this past Christmas I got a manual penalty from Google that
basically took down three of my sites like in one day and so it was just like
hi we noticed your sites have kind of bad linking profile and we're gonna have
to penalize you for that and I was just like at first when I saw it I was like
oh maybe that's not too bad like they you know I get messages in webmaster
tools or search console often enough so I didn't think that it was like the end
of the world but it turns out it actually was the end of the world okay I
was like it took like a few hours I'm like hey wait a second and then this
shit hit the fan kind of thing right and by the way most of your traffic it came
from like organic search traffic right so yeah all of it all right
so like 90 percent or higher right oh yeah like 90 98 percent all right so bad
deal and basically your earnings went from like pretty good to like almost
nothing yeah well Christmas luckily I guess I just got my Christmas sales in
and then this happened on Christmas so it was like end of the
month I'm like yeah December was pretty good I made like good money like I
normally do on in December and then got the penalty and then things just like
plummeted terrible all right well luckily we can say you've recovered your
earnings are back the traffic is basically back and what we're going to
talk about today is sort of a few definitions and then we're gonna talk
about like how you recovered so we have about twelve steps to go through and
we're gonna try and be pretty concise with this and avoid our normal rambling
discussions yeah hopefully everyone will appreciate that so first off the bat can
you just quickly define like you know grey hat black hat white hat yeah I mean
white hat is where you do everything basically like on the level you don't
screw around you do it like you don't like do anything potentially hazardous
with your sights you just are doing everything pure as driven snow
that's the white kind of like tag and as compared with black hat which is where
you start doing things that Google might have a problem with and if it does have
a problem and it does notice those black hat things you've done that for a
temporary amount of time can benefit you a lot but if it sees those things it can
just like destroy you within like a day oh and then gray hats in the middle
right and all I'm gonna do a quick tweak and clarification there's obviously a
lot of like different opinions on white hat and gray hat and you know what some
people even say don't build backlinks like it doesn't even matter like if they
naturally come great but don't worry about it so quick clarification at least
you know my opinion white hat is it follows the google
webmaster guidelines and essentially that says you know you're not doing
anything where you're trying to build links for SEO that's sort of their
guideline in my opinion black hat is actually like illegal stuff so that is
like hacking someone's site you know inserting code like doing something
where you could like go to jail and that's black hat in my opinion and grey
hat is you know somewhere like you know violating the terms of service from like
Google but it's not illegal you're just build ranks and you can't go to jail
or any of those activities gray hat activities so that's my definition but
everyone honestly I mean there's a lot of debate out there so well I think also
it's worth mentioning that there's like the idea of black hat being something
you can use as like a webmaster to like get ahead quickly or whatever so just
kind of like illegal stuff then there's black hat where it's like it's being
done to you hence the negative SEO thing got it got it okay so and as far as like
backlinks for niche sites I mean do you think they're necessary for niche sites
I mean we've had this debate ongoing about this where you've always been
encouraging me to try to get them and I've been I kind of being Who I am and
not being like extremely social with people and wanting to reach out to them
I kind of just ignore that for a while basically I've been not doing them for a
while but eventually finally like I'm sort of doing them because it just it
does have like a an effective it does benefit to do them if you do them right
cool in this is a little teaser for the next video where we're actually going to
talk about the white hat outreach that you have been doing and it sounds like
you've you know doubled your traffic doubled your revenue on that particular
project so super interesting in an upcoming video but back you are our
issue of the day which is figuring out what to do with this manual penalty so
when you first got the penalty like I guess what did you do how did you figure
out that it maybe was due to negative SEO or something else well the penalty
does have a link well when I got the penalty I held a link to a video that I
guess is pretty old it was from like Matt Cutts from my 2012 saying like hey
welcome to this video if you're if you're watching this video it's because
there's some issues with your site and it has something to do with you being
involved in some link schemes and you probably shouldn't have done that but
you have to fix it and depth at a time like what the hell like seriously what
the hell is this and then that was like the first indication that it was like
more serious and I was just starting to get a bad feeling right yeah gotcha and
since you weren't big on link building I mean you probably had a hunch that you
didn't build those links that was the problem was something else right
but yeah like I went into occasionally I would like check out my links to my site
search console but not being a big backlink person I'm just like and
whatever it's like those things come and go or whatever they're just there and I
hadn't really closely looked at them but then when I looked at them closer like
because you can download the whole you know like spreadsheet of them or
whatever and I was like oh oh like there's a lot of them and they're bad
and that's just the tip of the iceberg so that was where I was like shit like
this is like not good got it so how do you tell like the good
ones from the bad ones well it's pretty I mean people have asked me that lately
cuz you know I've been complaining about this lately and it's like you can pretty
much tell because I mean there's a couple rules to go by where you know if
you didn't intentionally make them and you're not aware of them then they're
probably not good because why are they even there you know like if you didn't
go out of your way to get them then chances are they're being there they're
not there for a good reason and the other thing is you can just look at the
kind of indole like wait a second like that domain name looks a little bit off
I've been like manually checking all them now so like I can see what which
ones are bad and usually if something has some kind of garbling sounding
domain name that's a pretty good indication of it being bad like so for
instance it'd be called like you know monster truck jam X dot X Y Z dot ninja
kind of thing it's just like some weird thing like that right I was going to say
I've had this happen to a few of my site and yet there's a lot of XYZ sites a lot
of dot biz sites a lot of info sites just yeah not typical URLs that you
would see it may just be like a jumble of letters that doesn't spell anything
with a bunch of numbers on the end or yeah international a lot of
international you are ELLs too so they just they look weird now I mean you
mentioned if you didn't build the link and you see a link it's probably not a
great one to have and I will say you know if your site's pretty good you you
probably will get a couple links here and they're just people linking to your
site because it's a good resource hopefully and those will look like
actual websites and when you go look at the link you'll see like a norm
website when you look at these links right usually it's like a weird site
with like a bunch of weird links on that page yeah like I mean that's where that
that's where the negative SEO comes into play because I think not all of them
have those odd sounding domain names like some of them are like be like that
the tree conservatory of like Daytona or something you know like dot org and then
you go to it and it's just like pictures and weird links like all the way down
and it's nothing like the name would imply so those are kind of ones where
I'm like hey wait a second someone's purchased that domain use it as spam
like domain and then spamming me with that domain so I'm like that seems a
little more intentional than just like your average robot doing something shine
of randomly okay so and you alluded to like a spam attack so can you kind of
describe like why someone would do that like what it looks like from your
perspective yeah I mean I guess the thing that I can include into as I'm
sorting through all these like thousands there's literally because if you don't
keep track of these links they add up pretty quickly and I think they're
proportionate to like if you're making money then people can see you out there
and then a certain percentage of people are bad and they will spam you and so
yeah as you're going through the links you're you're realizing that you know
like these links are you know I've been put there by someone to like spam you
and then you think why is someone spamming me what's the point of this and
point of it obviously is once you get like for me that the threshold was like
8,000 links so once you get to about 8,000 crappy links the penalty is like
triggered and then it just that's when you get you know you get screwed up so
that's sort of like why people are just kind of like sending more links to you
and like they're they want you out of the way so that if you're ranking for
like best fridge magnet suddenly you just disappear and then they can pop up
into that spot it's like an unethical way of like gaining like ranking this or
whatever so right got it so and again I have seen this on several of my sites
and what what happens right like because it usually will maybe have a look at our
backlink profile like once a quarter or something like that
hopefully like you just out of curiosity you have a look you know and on a chaffs
for exam that's kind of the one I used to check
out backlinks you'll just be going along maybe some growth rate and then all of a
sudden you'll see like a big spike with like several hundred links and in one of
the cases that I observed was you know basically someone redirected like 301
redirected about 800 different sites to my site and then it just you know all of
a sudden I was like why do I have like all these new links that are 301
redirects this is really very strange and I just you know I disavowed them
which brings me to the disavow tool so can you sort of like tell us about the
disavowed tool and like your experience with it's sort of like how you took the
list of like bad links and then what do you do with it
well once you've compiled your list there's a certain format that you need
to adhere to in order to like submit it to the disavow which I guess I'm not
sure if it's common knowledge but then again I don't even think that this about
tool is common knowledge so it's like first of all you have to know about the
tool the fact that it's there then you have to upload a file in a specific
format and if you don't then the file is kind of invalid so I think Google
probably has these these instructions somewhere I think I watch the YouTube
video or something about it but it probably wasn't Google like Google kind
of like spreads out information in weird places so it's kind of hard to like get
all the information you need to like find out what to do but once you have
the list then you have to upload it to the disavow tool it's theoretically
really easy it's just like make the list upload it you're done yeah it's a text
file yep and I was gonna say I have I think like in the thread of emails that
Google may send you they have links to like the video that you watch with Matt
Cutts and then they have links from there to the disavow tool the format and
like I said I've read through the documentation so yeah the format is
quite simple like you list the URL on one line text file I'll put links for
all this stuff by the way and then you could actually disavow like every link
from a specific domain so you would just type in yeah domain colon and then
whatever the domain is and then any layer from that domain is not recognized
so it's a quick write to just like you know narrow down your backlinks so so
you submitted though and then what happens after that how
long does it take for that file to be like evaluated or whatever okay well
here's the thing so like for one thing I did I did all like domain level disavow
so like I didn't even but I think the first few times I did it I had like
every link in there it's so there's like 8,000 links in this file and I went
through them all manually so it took me like days and stuff to do that and then
eventually I'm like you know what this whole like domain level thing makes a
lot of sense because a lot of times these domains would link like dozens or
hundreds of times to me so I'm like this guy needs to be disavowed at the domain
level for sure cuz like why would I not disavow this guy at the domain level I
don't want anything this guy does to come come and get me so like I did that
and that's shortened the list a lot to like you know maybe like a 100 or 200
domains but in that it would contain you know the 8,000 actual permalinks to all
that all the links so basically you consolidated the huge list down to the
domain level yeah to make it more manageable you knew right whole domain
was bad yeah right oh yeah okay then basically like you submit it and the the
fun part is that you don't know when Google actually like takes a look at it
there's no like we've seen this there's none of that so it's like it's just in
there like in the in the disavow tool like waiting to be gone over and the
thing the other thing that makes it additionally kind of confusing it's like
in search console you expect those links maybe to disappear because they've been
disavowed but I don't think they necessarily do they just still sit there
and they kind of like swirl around but I'm not sure if they disappear they
don't all the links are still listed there right so interesting now how often
did you disavow or how often should you disavow if you're seeing like these
negative SEO links : yeah I do it every like I'm trying to do it every two
months now because yeah if you go to a traps and you look at the new links to
your site and you start seeing like hey there's 10 links a day being added to my
site that's probably not good because for me I only get like one or two
backlinks a month that are really good so getting 10 links a day from somebody
is not good I've to look at that and I see that a
lot actually like with my sites is just like you know you lose links to so like
there'll be like 10 new ones and like you lost you but if you start seeing
that trend and you you're like looking at that I
think that's bad that's a sign that you should be like disavowing obviously more
often because that's gonna pile up pretty quickly yeah it's like it's crazy
because you know like that this is sort of like if anyone's watching this and
they want it to be like a asshole they could just they could go over to Fiverr
and like you know that's how you do it you just like go to fiber you buy like a
million backlinks package for $10 and then just like launch them at your
opponent and then the guy on Fiverr is just like well I don't care I don't know
I'm not gonna ask like I don't know I could ask too many questions so he's
just gonna do what you pay him to do and with his shit backlinks and just toss
them at whoever so once you get those million backlinks like coming your way
then it's like I don't know if there's literally a million but if there is it's
like that's bad news too that would be bad yeah but like I don't that's the
whole like I think industry of like the negative SEO where it's like there's
there's a bunch of like people on Fiverr that do that it's supposedly good for
your SEO backlinks but when you're getting them but by like the hundreds of
thousands it's obviously gonna cause problems but I think some people my
hunch is that some people go on there and they just do that to like mess with
their competition like if you're doing that bad that's bad and I don't like you
because that's that's actually horrible you're so the the other thing that I
want to point out is you know while that's true what you said you know
people could go buy those links Google does a really good job figuring out
these bad backlinks and like they just don't recognize them so I think like in
the last two years or so Google has gotten like really good at figuring
those out so for a long time I mean you can kind of ignore it but at some point
there's some threshold and that I mean that's why we're talking about this like
yeah if you have a site going for and it's doing well for a few years like
there's a good chance you've accumulated like some negative SEO overtime maybe
you haven't noticed maybe it's not even like pure negative SEO maybe it's just
some people building links to random site I'm not sure like the motivation
for that yeah but there I mean I have heard of like just links like showing up
and it didn't to be like pure negative SEO but it's
just like a bag full of links so the point is people don't go waste your
money like if you're trying to be a jerk don't go waste your money trying to do
this on Fiverr because like if someone's paying attention they just disavow the
links and then they may not even be recognized by Google anyway however if
the person is very persistent they may be able to like reach the threshold or
something like that but anyway I just wanted to point that out so there's not
a flood of people trying to do negative well I mean like the whole premise of
those links is to do them on yourself so it improves your site so it's like
that's the kind of like false premise of those those packages and either if
you're doing it to yourself or to someone else it's like if you're
watching this it's just like don't don't buy those packages or I used to buy them
so I mean like I'm guilty if it's due in the beginning when I was like hey what's
Fiverr and oh look he's like you're gonna get these awesome links like I
remember that and I was like don't do it Dave don't yeah don't do that
and I did it occasionally just and for all I know I'm like talking to myself
here you know it was me all along right so I don't know if that was like some
package that I bought like four years ago that the guy still has the button is
still green and there's still links shooting out of it but also it's like
there's a another thing there's a lot of porn links well actually I don't know
Google shows you the porn I think it does show you get porn links actually
but there's if there's a lot of bad links a lot of them I find are like porn
links now so it's like it's not just weird you know like shifty sites that
don't that don't really have any purpose it's also just like mega porn dot biz is
linking to you like a thousand times and like I can see why Google would if that
was happening like regularly and you had all those links Google's gonna
eventually ban you because they don't like it's just a robot it's just AI so
it's not if they just think this is bad like they can't you know what are they
gonna do right so let's sort of wrap it up here now you disavowed you figured
out how to disavow in you were able to recover your site so at some point you
had to like submit your site for reconsideration right so how does that
work that's the thing do you like it's it's the whole the whole process is a
little bit like mysterious to me I know someone apparently reviews the the lists
at some point and then you get a message from Google saying you know you've been
either the penalty's list or penalty remains based on their
assessment of your links that you've submitted and I've been told I'm not
sure if this is true because Google really doesn't have a lot of information
on this but like the people that do that aspect like the like in my I have a
whole rant about this but essentially like when you try to contact Google
through like different channels search console is like the hardest people to a
contact like I'll tell a quick anecdote if I may about what Google Suites
I don't even heard of that that's like the set of tools is alright yeah there's
like a new business Google business account and I got it because I was
panicking and trying to get a hold of Google to ask them questions about the
disavowing and stuff like that and Google Suites gives you your own like
24/7 like helpline so I remember calling that helpline after I paid for dual
suite so I didn't want I just paid for it so I get the helpline and then I was
talking with people in the helpline I was like yeah so my sites got hit by
this penalty and they're like oh no that sucks like what happened I'm like you
guys did this this was you and and they're like what what are you talking
about I'm like yeah like search console blah blah blah penalty disavow and and
the guy and the guy was just like had no clue what I was talking about he's just
like we've never heard of this we'll talk to our team like so it's within the
Google Suites thing they have like no knowledge of search console and to the
record everyone that I've talked to has no knowledge of search console except
for like a very few select people like that dude who's on YouTube that does the
webmaster chats I forget what his name is but I think he's like the one guy on
the planet who like seems to know anything and that's why people go on the
webmaster chat and like just like beg him to help him look at the one guy that
knows anything but uh yeah seriously like what the search console world is
very like like under staffed I guess you could say as far as I'm concerned and
I've been told that it's just like they're out on an island somewhere
anyway so you submit it and then at some point you get the you know Google tells
you the result of your submission and it took me like months to get them sites
back because they rejected me a bunch of times like my once I got back
immediately within like a week so that's I had like a maybe a two-week like low
in that like a drop or two weeks the other sites were like a month and then
like a month and a half but they kept rejecting me and I was just like trying
to that was my I couldn't figure out why they were
rejecting me because I was working on this like constantly and you know like
losing money by the day and so I was freaking out and there is nobody really
to like you know like help me so I just got lucky eventually there's people to
do penalty like removal things and you know those are the people I was turning
to you at that time to like possibly pay them like a shitload of money to like
help me remove the counting so I was just like well maybe that's what I have
to do in order to get the penalty lifted cuz nobody can help me
but eventually I just spent like 20 hours doing it myself and then got the
penalty lifted so okay so in you submit it for reconsideration and then you hear
something back in some indeterminate amount of time carries and then if you
get rejected was your action to disavow more links basically yeah I have to
reassess this list and like figure out what I missed on here yeah just like
basically pile on more links because there's it wasn't enough or something
like that alright and then once your sites were accepted you read they were
reconsidered and then Google said yes they look fine now how long did it take
for the traffic and rankings to return I'd say like within a few days they're
back to where they were it's just hilarious right because it's just like
you're going along and then just like you hit the bottom and you alive you
have like two users a day from like thousands of users a day just like top
2002 - it's just like - for like a month they're basically just like stepping on
your like they just holding underwater you know like you're nobody can see you
in that but you're there but nobody can see you right and then when you get you
know reconsidered and you're back the penalties removed it's just like Oh
everything's fine like you just like cruise back up to the same level and
you're just like haha that's funny like that's crazy it's really weird because
now it's like you're just back in that you're back in the SERPs your people can
see you again whereas you were invisible for like all that time it's just like
it's just crazy because you're trying to think of like you know how that whole
process works like I'm just invisible now like I'm still there you can do it
you can type me in I'm there but like nobody can see me right so and then then
all the sudden they're just like a buddy you're the best go back to where you
were and you're like thanks right right and by the way this sort of like
it does a couple things and we'll we'll wrap up here but you know number one
there was another big I mean a lot of people were penalized in that timeframe
you know from time to time it looks like maybe a year every two years Google has
like a big set of manual penalties and they sort of make an example of a
certain like group of sites or a certain group that does link-building a certain
way I got caught up in like 2013 and 2014 with private blog networks and you
know my sites went down a lot of my peers their sites went down is you know
a big deal so like I said every few years there seems to be like some other
set that is identified and then Google will take a big action and I mean it
scares a lot of people from doing certain things right so it's it's
effective in that sort of fear aspect there's another site called ten beast
that saw like a similar fate and they were able to disavow some set of their
links and then recover their site too so this stuff does happen negative SEO is
real the other part is and I don't know that ten beasts added a negative SEO
problem by the way but they disavowed links and the point is if you have like
links going to your site and it's penalized you can recover it like
through your persistence right I mean it's basically it was your livelihood
your your full-time income like you needed to recover these sites and you
work through the list and submitted it a few times and then you were able to
recover your sites so I mean you can recover a site if it gets penalized
whether it's you know whether you're doing gray hat or or not I will mention
I wasn't able to recover my sites because basically all of the links that
I had back in the day were private blog network links and like right if I
disavowed all of those links there would be none left
yes so there was I mean I just I moved on
basically so right anything else to add about disavows or negative SEO or
anything Dave I would just like in conclusion and say like if your if this
happens to you like you're gonna want to jump out a window
probably if it's you know if it was anything like
my situation I was like going literally going crazy but you just have to stay
calm and like you know just just react in a strategic way where you're like you
know there's a way to react to this situation and it's not like by giving up
or by like calling Google and yelling at them or something like you just have to
do something proactive and just take those steps and you'll get things will
things will come back it's a it's a learner it was a learning experience for
me because if you haven't even look looked at your links like your backlinks
maybe it's time you check check looked into that right like take a look good
look at that list gonna get a coffee and sit down and look at those links and
be like what are these who are these people you know what I mean right yep
yeah for sure yep it is really just I mean it's a problem to solve it's not a
fun problem to have or a fireman to solve but like once you get through it I
mean you're probably a lot more confident now like if you got a like a
negative SEO attack or a penalty for some reason like your problem all right
I could do it now I mean like the good thing is I have like a nice spreadsheet
where it's like the good guys the bad guys and then if there's a good guy like
good guy good guy goes on the good list bad guy goes on the bad list and then
it's fine cuz you just like know how to deal with these people it's like you
know what I mean yep awesome yeah well thanks for sharing
your story quick plug for your YouTube channel you just want to tell us a
little bit about it right now yeah I have records which is my record
label it is my dream to you know like how people check out the music on that
channel because that's what I do with the money that I make from SEO I like go
to the studio and record stuff so I mean like everyone has their little like
dream and stuff and that's what I'd like to do so I that's my that's what I want
to plug essentially cool yeah everybody check it out and uh you know subscribe
to Dave's channel yeah sent me a nice comment on that channel alright thanks
Dave we'll talk to you later okay cool yeah thanks a lot Dave for
sharing your story in your approach to negative SEO and I hope it doesn't
impact anybody out there but if it does take some of Dave's tips and you should
be in better shape don't forget to check out Dave's channel he's a musician
and there's cool music there so go have a look over at Dave's
Channel and let him know you came from a niche site project
you
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